Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more • Hacker News Board

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#161

Post by toyg » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

laurent123456 wrote: post #85

Nursie wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this a lot in the UK, and it's why I'm now a contractor. You will have 10 years experience, a relevant degree, security clearance and no boundaries when it comes to overtime. We will pay you £35k! The sad thing is, they will fill that position, with someone not very good, with low expectations and no confidence in themselves. And they will get mediocre work, which they expect.

The difference in pay between contractor and permanent position in the UK is almost weird. The job is exactly the same, often for a duration of several months to years, and full time, except as a contractor you get paid like 2 or 3 times more. There are advantages to work in a permanent position but that doesn't make up for the massive loss in revenue.

Job security is a huge psychological factor. I'm starting on my own this very month, and deep down I'm incredibly scared that in a year I might be without a roof on my (and my children's) head.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#162

Post by morsma » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #113

jhasse wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to give away sometimes more than half of it Where? This is the tax in Germany for example: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/ES...

@rglullis: Well. There is social security, health care, retirement funds and there are taxes. Well: I gladly pay health insurance in Germany instead of having an American system. Could it be better - hell yes. There is so much bullshit being paid for and so much in the system is made to extract money. But first: taxes are not the culprit here. And second: Pay for healthcare in the US yourself and see what system you…

As a Dane living in the US. I'll take the US health system anyday over the danish system. Just too bad Obama increased premiums by 50-100%.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#163

Post by FidelCashflow » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

muse900 wrote: post #41

sametmax wrote: post #11

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

My example comes from Greece where I reside for the past 9 months. People owning touristic buisnesses on the islands are moaning about how much they need more staff and can't find any, and they are arguing why younger people tend to not work and just receive benefits instead of going to work. The argument here that they won't understand though is that, 1st they are paying very low. They are all willing to pay the min…

Do you think that the owner(s) of the hotels shouldn't be compensated for the risk that they're taking by building and operating the property? There's a ton of risk associated with investing like that.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#164

Post by commandlinefan » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

I'm not sure the premise of the title - that employers will do almost anything (or anything at all) to find or retain workers - is accurate. Setting aside pay - will they offer livable working conditions, or will they cram everybody elbow to elbow in a noisy airplane hangar with no dividers like cattle? I don't see that any employers, anywhere, are doing anything to find good employees, paying more being just one of the things they're not doing.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#165

Post by stone-monkey » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

aplummer wrote: post #75

matte_black wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter argument, never forget you can be a responsible saver one day, only to be dead and buried the next. If you want to guarantee an expensive lifestyle, it’s best to obtain it as immediately as possible.

Thank god somebody said it. We are in the golden age of cheap travel and leisure, perhaps the golden age of all ages (and certainly of all past). People spend your easy money and enjoy youth IMO.

It doesn't really make sense to say it because it's not as if there's a general cultural tendency towards shrift. Most people aren't saving enough, what's the point in popularizing the message that we should continue on that same course?

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#166

Post by pjmorris » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

sdhgaiojfsa wrote: post #129

pjmorris wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are also the collective shareholders (obviously not majority) It's that 'not the majority' thing that's the fly in the ointment. I owe this claim a link, but most shareholders are part of the wealthy and/or the professional classes, skewing stock gains toward a few, and away from the many. EDIT: Added link supporting claim. Per WP article, chart 'Stock ownership is heavily concentrated', top 20% of US households…

Most shareholders (holders of the wealth represented by companies) are members of the wealthy class? :P You don't say. I'm of two minds on this. Wealth and income are not the same. You get wealth by not consuming all of your income, and instead by investing it. Of course, if you have just enough income to survive, then you cannot accumulate wealth. But most people (in the US) are not in that boat. One of the phenomen…

> I definitely think that the rich (broadly defined -- both via high income or high wealth) need to be contributing more back to society than we are.

If the goal is to spread wealth more evenly, wouldn't it make sense to tax wealth rather than income? As a general principle of incentives, you want to tax the thing you want less of.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#167

Post by rglullis » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #113

jhasse wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to give away sometimes more than half of it Where? This is the tax in Germany for example: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/ES...

@rglullis: Well. There is social security, health care, retirement funds and there are taxes. Well: I gladly pay health insurance in Germany instead of having an American system. Could it be better - hell yes. There is so much bullshit being paid for and so much in the system is made to extract money. But first: taxes are not the culprit here. And second: Pay for healthcare in the US yourself and see what system you…

It is a false dichotomy. I don't mind the health insurance being mandatory, much like I don't mind people being forced to pay for car insurance if they drive a car. What I find absurd in Germany is that you pay based on your income, just that. I would accept it being factored in, but not being the sole metric to determine pay.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#168

Post by frenchdev » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #11

And if you think it's bad, it's even worse in Europe. Taking the French example: I'm an freelancer, but I used to have a contract with an American company. They gave me 3x the salary most of my French colleagues would get, while keeping the exact same social advantages (they paid me through a French branch). However, to them, the salary was twice lower than what they would have paid for the same guy in the Valley. No…

I have worked for 5 diferent french companies as a developper and this is so true. They all complain because they can't find developpers, sometimes its not even that they can't find "good" developpers its just that they can't find any developpers willing to work for them. Then when you see what they wan't to pay i just laugh. Someone helping on a kitchen in a restaurant can earn the same as a developper here in france. Most of the devs in Paris earn like 2000 per month after tax. Its just a joke, and when you get paid a decen't salary the marketing/finance/lawyers complain beacuse you are "just a developper".

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#169

Post by whack » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

Expecting public companies to do anything except optimize for shareholder value, is pure folly. We can debate morality all day, but there's a more practical reason for this: shareholders hold all the power over management. Regardless of how unhappy you as a customer/employee are, you do not have the direct power to fire the directors/executives. You only have the indirect power of pressuring the shareholders, and hoping they will pass it along.

Hence why CEOs and Board of Directors will optimize for shareholders interests above customers/employees/society. Because if they don't, they will get fired and get replaced with someone else who does. This is textbook Evolution and Natural Selection.

If we aren't happy with the way corporations are paying their employees, the solution has to come from outside the corporations. Demand that your government increase the minimum wage, increase the capital gains tax rates, raise tax rates for the 0.1%, and use the proceeds to fund basic income or a better social safety net. he private sector does a great job of generating wealth, but don't ever expect it to distribute it fairly.

Re: Employers will do almost anything to find workers except pay them more

#170

Post by cr1895 » Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

geezerjay wrote: post #93

Nursie wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh shush, taxes are not 'extreme' in most of Europe, and you get a lot for your money - healthcare for example.

Income taxes tend to cover up to 50% of your income. Then there's VAT syphoning an extra 20% of the remaining cash. Then there are hidden taxes charged throguh other fees being levied, even to access mandatory state services. In the end you get healthcare, but in general the service is practically unusable and you end up having to pay for health insurance anyway. And by the way, a large portion of your taxes is effec…

Your hyperbole isn't helping you deliver your point.