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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#51

Post by user5454 »

_Microft wrote: post #38
adityapurwa wrote: post #12

I was taught that it is okay to be envious, what isnt okay was to wish that someone will lose the things we envied about. When I see someone bought a new car, I will pray “I hope his car is useful and he can benefit from it, I hope that someday I will have a car like his or even better”. While it might be hard in practice, so far it helped me stay positive to everyone.

In the german language there are the two words Neid and Missgunst . Both could be translated as enviousness but have a slightly different meanings. While Missgunst is definitely negative and maybe even destructive, Neid does not need to be negative and can have the meaning like in the example you gave.

Interesting, in Swedish we have two (main) words too. The most common word, avundsjuk, even though it has sjuk in it (meaning sick or ill), doesn't necessarily have to be negative. E.g. "I'm so avundsjuk on your vacation to the Bahamas but I hope you have a nice trip." Missunnsam (sounds related to Missgunst) OTOH means that you refuse to let someone enjoy the object of envy. "I guess you must do some pretty heavy tax-evasion in order to afford that trip to the Bahamas."

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#52

Post by henrikschroder »

_Microft wrote: post #38
adityapurwa wrote: post #12

I was taught that it is okay to be envious, what isnt okay was to wish that someone will lose the things we envied about. When I see someone bought a new car, I will pray “I hope his car is useful and he can benefit from it, I hope that someday I will have a car like his or even better”. While it might be hard in practice, so far it helped me stay positive to everyone.

In the german language there are the two words Neid and Missgunst . Both could be translated as enviousness but have a slightly different meanings. While Missgunst is definitely negative and maybe even destructive, Neid does not need to be negative and can have the meaning like in the example you gave.

Same in Swedish, there's one word for "You have it, and I also want it" (avundsjuka), and one word for "You have it, but I don't want you to have it" (missunnsamhet).

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#53

Post by RugnirViking »

beagle3 wrote: post #45
RugnirViking wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Depends on the scale of course, but the US the best are idolized and boasting is expected (even encouraged), and this is true in other countries as well (though it is my experience the US is by far the leader). As someone who have lived in a few countries and visited many more, I think the law of jante is a description of the social dynamics of scandinavian societies much more than of anywhere else (Denmark much more…

This is why I mentioned -certain types- of societies. I find my native british culture very similar to denmark indeed on this front. In fact I do not believe for a minuite that the nordic countries are the most representative of such a thing. That dubious honour goes to places such as singapore where work ethics and not sticking out are extremely deeply ingrained.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#54

Post by RugnirViking »

hectorlorenzo wrote: post #48
RugnirViking wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Have you ever lived in a Mediterranean country?

That would be why I mentioned -certain types- of societies. I do not think this is applicable to all cultures but many of them.

I have visited them and indeed I find a certain split between my experience of people's cultures and values say in the south of france and italy than I do in germany or russia.

I'm not sure if I really want to make the conjecture that there are two kinds of societies but I feel that on this issue it would certainly seem that way.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#55

Post by user5454 »

andromedaworld wrote: post #30
user5454 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity. Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well. [1] Original article

> Better in what way? Better in the way that western civilization (with America leading the way) has been built on hierarchies. People in the States don't even realize how good they have it there because of this fact alone. Many egalitarian models have been attempted elsewhere and failed terribly only leading to mass deaths or eating out of the garbage can as is the case in Venezuela. Majority of the attempts at egal…

> Better in the way that western civilization (with America leading the way) has been built on hierarchies.

Despite that that is an incorrect statement (it has been addressed by coldtea's comment), my original question tried to hint towards a wider view. It's not as simple as saying western civilization is better. Is it better for the individual? How? Is it better for humanity? How? Is it better because we have cars, computers, airplanes and what not? Would all humans have starved to death without it? And then what is the cost of western civilization? Does it carry those costs? After all, hierarchical systems have stood for some of the worst atrocities in both historic and more modern times. When a ruler can send millions to war with some other ruler because he (let's be honest it's mostly a he) has the power over "his" people.

Western civilization is what we have and know but what is to say that the world couldn't have been in a better place if history had taken some other turns?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#56

Post by RugnirViking »

olavk wrote: post #44
RugnirViking wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

The "Law of Jante" is formulated in a novel by the Danish-Norwegian author Axel Sandemose. He explicitly states that the law is used by the proletariat to keep each other down, and that it is a universal phenomenon - just as strong in Brooklyn as in Jante, the (semi-fictional) Danish town of the book. A critical part of the book is his description of the "Law of Jante" among a dysfunctional multinational crew of sail…

Cultures tend towards believing that something they have is unique about them. I do not know why this is but I suppose believing in something such as a national identity presupposes that there is something distinct about that identity.

As somebody from the UK it's strange that I find a certain source of solace from this kind of culture even though practically it doesn't seem to make sense to dislike those who are succesful.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#57

Post by vfc1 »

Also known as the Crab Effect, where the other crabs in a bucket will pull an escaping crab down if he tries to escape - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

There is a lot of this in the West too, although to a lesser degree and in a less open way. Its one of those ancient behaviors and systems of values that we keep applying today that don't make much sense anymore.

We don't live in small villages anymore, doing hunter-gathering or communal agriculture.

In today's society, everyone should feel free to try new things, learn and achieve their full potential, without having to deal with this constant social pressure that leads us to be as average as possible, in order to avoid standing out from the group and get punished for that.

It's not clear if this pull to be as average as possible is something embedded in our genes or if its purely cultural.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#58

Post by megablast »

vfc1 wrote: post #57

Also known as the Crab Effect, where the other crabs in a bucket will pull an escaping crab down if he tries to escape - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality There is a lot of this in the West too, although to a lesser degree and in a less open way. Its one of those ancient behaviors and systems of values that we keep applying today that don't make much sense anymore. We don't live in small villages anymore,…

What an odd site to link to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#59

Post by Senderman »

Nokinside wrote: post #36
Senderman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found your comment quite enlightning, and I thought it ended well with an open-ended "What is the best socioeconomic system depends on the circumstances." But you then pick out a specific socioeconomic system as "probably the best" without specifying those circumstances - unless you mean "long term survival" to be those circumstances? If so, survival of what? Village/tribe systems? The problem seems circular, put t…

I did specify it "long term survival purposes". Maybe I should have been more specific. In a environment where survival is uncertain survival values and system that maximizes survival is the best. Innovation and individuality succeed in a systems where basics are covered and system can be trusted to work. Example of wrong system: preppers with single family bunkers loaded with weapons and food. If the society collaps…

I believe I follow: your advice is to the individual looking to maximise their own survival chance. I read your original comment in a more abstract way, I suppose - 'long term survival,' to me, evoked way to preserve what we value as humanity, elusive as that might be, for ITS survival - if that makes sense.

I must say I'm very fond of this hypothetical amish vs. biker gangs throwdown.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#60

Post by digi_owl »

olavk wrote: post #44
RugnirViking wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

The "Law of Jante" is formulated in a novel by the Danish-Norwegian author Axel Sandemose. He explicitly states that the law is used by the proletariat to keep each other down, and that it is a universal phenomenon - just as strong in Brooklyn as in Jante, the (semi-fictional) Danish town of the book. A critical part of the book is his description of the "Law of Jante" among a dysfunctional multinational crew of sail…

The only people i see claiming this as some national characteristic are foreigners and people that has already gotten slapped for being an asshole by society.
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