Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

sapiens.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 128 posts

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#21

Post by TangoTrotFox »

dragonwriter wrote: post #14
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #10

The author's final conclusions take, as a matter of fact, that inequality is what drove revolutions of the past. It seems that the more precise cause of these revolutions throughout time has not been the lack of equality, but the lack of fairness. And these are two very different things. If we take 1000 people and give rewards in proportion to performance at some task, it will be extremely unequal - yet fair. If we t…

> yet the people did not protest because the bourgeois enjoyed feasts of wine and meat while they ate grain and water, as had been the case since time immemorial. Well, no, the food crises immediately preceding the revolution meant that the people weren't even getting their expected grain and water. But the bourgeoisie (a class that was the middle class in the pre-capitalist economy of the time and which hadn't reall…

Good point. My choice of terminology there was going to be, at best, distracting. Edited.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#22

Post by Nokinside »

> Everyone jealously scrutinised everybody else all the time – something easy to do when all social life was conducted in a public space. They took careful note of what others ate, what others owned, what others received or gave as gifts, and whether or not they were sufficiently generous in return.

This was typical small village behavior in Nordics less than 100 years ago. When your survival depends on the village coming to your help when you are in trouble, you pay for it by giving up some freedoms. Social control is used to keep everyone in line.

Economic historians have noticed how egalitarian small village farming limited the innovation in agriculture. You could not adopt new crop or radical new technology easily unless everybody was on board even if everyone was farming their own piece of land (you need to come together for investments, risk sharing and emergency work). In contrast, independent big landowner changing something was just one man doing the decision.

What is the best socioeconomic system depends on the circumstances. For long term survival purposes conservative, cohesive and close willage/tribe and demand sharing/palace economy is probably the best.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#23

Post by RugnirViking »

user5454 wrote: post #5

> "For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered." This seems to have the same purpose as the Law of Jante[1] we have in the Nordic countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#24

Post by vixen99 »

andromedaworld wrote: post #7
robius wrote: post #4

Similarly, having grown up in a Socialist Republic with a Communist party, envy was a big motivator for crime against your neighbor. While some would never have a thought of harming another over perceived better off neighbor, most would take action as some form of irrational justice. And if they were found out or caught, the 'actual' justice would never be forgiven, despite all this being their own doing. Many leave…

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

Sure though it's not a question of picking. Nature doles out competence in unequal measure; thus hierarchies are inevitable. As we observe, in the aftermath of revolutions they rapidly reconstitute. Fortunately hierarchies of competence also compete. Since competence is not the same as human value, optimists trust that decent ideals prevail.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#26

Post by hn0 »

fit2rule wrote: post #18
ddnb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

What do you personally gain from having a stronger society of individuals who are no longer weak? No longer afflicted with pity?

It’s insurance against life events outside one’s control. Anyone can end up poor or disabled at any time.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#27

Post by dm319 »

The title is easily misunderstood - the article describes a type of envy in Namibian hunter-gatherers which resulted in a behaviour that is not usually seen as ok in most Western societies. They would insult and demean whatever windfall or wealth the person got, and also demand some of it.

This meant that those who were successful hunter gatherers didn't start believing they were superior or more deserving than their fellow tribesmen:

> just as the humility shown by good hunters and others with something to brag about was ascribed to “embarrassment.”

The article goes on to say how this behaviour has discouraged members of this group taking on higher management and political roles, which mean this community are under-represented on a national level, and also still very poor.

I found it a thought-provoking article. I seem to remember a time when the rich I met were somewhat embarrassed about their money, whereas I feel like at the moment people seem to be showing off their wealth a lot more. But maybe that is more to do with my social circles, or the facebook effect, or a different time in my life.

Personally, I find envy to be a very toxic emotion, which sways me and others to make life-choices that don't necessarily increase our happiness. I find I'm starting to avoid people who seem to care too much about their own and other's financial (and other) types of achievement.

Maybe I should take a leaf from the Ju/Hoansi and start insulting people's bragging rights. 'My! That is a shit bathroom you've got! And to think you spent that much...'

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#28

Post by oytis »

> For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered. Regardless of the size or condition of the carcass, those due a share of the meat would complain that the kill was trifling, that it was barely worth the effort of carrying it back to camp, or that there wouldn’t be enough meat to go around

Seems to me, a lot of people in modern society still excercise this ritual.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#29

Post by JunaidBhai »

Feeling envious might be good as long as it enforces you to take a positive change in your life.

Feeling envious for someone who has purchased a new house, a new car or established a new business would make you strive to have one for yourself would be regarded as a positive influence of envy.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#30

Post by andromedaworld »

user5454 wrote: post #11
andromedaworld wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity. Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well. [1] Original article

> Better in what way?

Better in the way that western civilization (with America leading the way) has been built on hierarchies. People in the States don't even realize how good they have it there because of this fact alone. Many egalitarian models have been attempted elsewhere and failed terribly only leading to mass deaths or eating out of the garbage can as is the case in Venezuela. Majority of the attempts at egalitarianism (if not all) are dehumanizing at best and murderous at worst.

A lot of people would want to come to America - myself included - but I've come to detest the perils of illegal immigration as is the case in my country where we have our own version of the same problem being faced by America with illegal aliens pouring in in droves. Luckily we have strong borders and Americans should also be thankful for a president that cares about these issues and is willing to take the heat for it.

Post reply on HN