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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#11

Post by user5454 »

andromedaworld wrote: post #7
robius wrote: post #4

Similarly, having grown up in a Socialist Republic with a Communist party, envy was a big motivator for crime against your neighbor. While some would never have a thought of harming another over perceived better off neighbor, most would take action as some form of irrational justice. And if they were found out or caught, the 'actual' justice would never be forgiven, despite all this being their own doing. Many leave…

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

> I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies [...] are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

Better in what way? The Ju/’hoansi have lived in this egalitarian society for some 200k yrs[1]. It has obviously served them quite well.

[1] Original article

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#12

Post by adityapurwa »

I was taught that it is okay to be envious, what isnt okay was to wish that someone will lose the things we envied about.

When I see someone bought a new car, I will pray “I hope his car is useful and he can benefit from it, I hope that someday I will have a car like his or even better”.

While it might be hard in practice, so far it helped me stay positive to everyone.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#13

Post by user5454 »

fit2rule wrote: post #9
andromedaworld wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

The normalisation of envy as a means of social control is a key element in the socialist playbook. Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? So, just be aware that what we're seeing in this article is a pro-socialist/-communist stance, broadly dressed up in anthropological mythos in order to make a political point, whi…

> not being envious of anyone, equalises everyone.

This is a very 1st world sentiment. If you live on less than $1/day, you are not equalized even if you're too hungry to feel any envy.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#14

Post by dragonwriter »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #10

The author's final conclusions take, as a matter of fact, that inequality is what drove revolutions of the past. It seems that the more precise cause of these revolutions throughout time has not been the lack of equality, but the lack of fairness. And these are two very different things. If we take 1000 people and give rewards in proportion to performance at some task, it will be extremely unequal - yet fair. If we t…

> yet the people did not protest because the bourgeois enjoyed feasts of wine and meat while they ate grain and water, as had been the case since time immemorial.

Well, no, the food crises immediately preceding the revolution meant that the people weren't even getting their expected grain and water. But the bourgeoisie (a class that was the middle class in the pre-capitalist economy of the time and which hadn't really existed “since time immemorial”) wasn't the target of the Revolution, indeed, while the masses and their discontent were powering it, the bourgeoisie was largely leading the Revolution.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#15

Post by ddnb »

fit2rule wrote: post #9
andromedaworld wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

The normalisation of envy as a means of social control is a key element in the socialist playbook. Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? So, just be aware that what we're seeing in this article is a pro-socialist/-communist stance, broadly dressed up in anthropological mythos in order to make a political point, whi…

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution?

I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#16

Post by annabellish »

fit2rule wrote: post #9
andromedaworld wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Envy is deplorable and there are few to zero things that would justify it. It quite frankly is very strange to see it being somewhat justified or even outright glorified by some here. I'm of the opinion that egalitarianism is not a desirable outcome. Hierarchies (but not necessarily ultra-hierarchies as I like to call them) are much more preferable and have demonstrated to be the better pick for humanity.

The normalisation of envy as a means of social control is a key element in the socialist playbook. Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? So, just be aware that what we're seeing in this article is a pro-socialist/-communist stance, broadly dressed up in anthropological mythos in order to make a political point, whi…

I'm not sure your comment is an accurate description of any form of socialism I'm aware of. What forms of socialism are based around "asking the state to enforce redistribution"?

What does that have to do with social ownership of the means of production??

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#17

Post by user5454 »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #10

The author's final conclusions take, as a matter of fact, that inequality is what drove revolutions of the past. It seems that the more precise cause of these revolutions throughout time has not been the lack of equality, but the lack of fairness. And these are two very different things. If we take 1000 people and give rewards in proportion to performance at some task, it will be extremely unequal - yet fair. If we t…

I agree, fairness != equality. While I'm a great believer in fairness, the problem with it is that it opens up to arbitration. What I consider fair may not be what you consider fair. Equality OTOH is measurable.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#18

Post by fit2rule »

ddnb wrote: post #15
fit2rule wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normalisation of envy as a means of social control is a key element in the socialist playbook. Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? So, just be aware that what we're seeing in this article is a pro-socialist/-communist stance, broadly dressed up in anthropological mythos in order to make a political point, whi…

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

What do you personally gain from having a stronger society of individuals who are no longer weak? No longer afflicted with pity?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#19

Post by fit2rule »

annabellish wrote: post #16
fit2rule wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normalisation of envy as a means of social control is a key element in the socialist playbook. Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? So, just be aware that what we're seeing in this article is a pro-socialist/-communist stance, broadly dressed up in anthropological mythos in order to make a political point, whi…

I'm not sure your comment is an accurate description of any form of socialism I'm aware of. What forms of socialism are based around "asking the state to enforce redistribution"? What does that have to do with social ownership of the means of production??

"Socially owning the means of production" requires a state to enforce, with threat of force, the ownership of those resources of production..

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#20

Post by TangoTrotFox »

acrossthepond10 wrote: post #6
robius wrote: post #4

Similarly, having grown up in a Socialist Republic with a Communist party, envy was a big motivator for crime against your neighbor. While some would never have a thought of harming another over perceived better off neighbor, most would take action as some form of irrational justice. And if they were found out or caught, the 'actual' justice would never be forgiven, despite all this being their own doing. Many leave…

would love to read more about this if you have recommended resources

This [1] is perhaps not a source of the sort you're probably looking for, but it's insightful nonetheless. It's a list of various 'jokes' from Russia during the soviet era. The stories they implicitly tell provide a broad overview of many issues. The reason I think those 'jokes' are appropriate is because the stories they implicitly tell are ones I've heard spoken of innumerous times prior.

I enjoy chess, which thrived during the soviet era. Consequently, I've found myself listening to and on occasion chatting with countless individuals who lived through these times. Even given the great privilege players were granted of the times (yeah, everybody is equal in #ism - some just more so than others), it is absolutely phenomenal to hear how abysmal it all was. These stories invariably come up, particularly given the complete ignorance of many on the topic today.

One anecdote that stuck with me was Peter Svidler [2] recalling how much of a shift in culture there was when Donald Duck made its way to Russia. How the people, even grown men, became deeply fond of it - not as a character, but as a symbol of the opening of culture and the freedom of the people. It's a world that's even difficult to imagine, but I think that through an abundance of tales one can begin to at least somewhat grasp the society that their communism created, and more generally that communism seems to inherently create - as one might note the parallels between the Bolshevik Revolution, China's Great Leap Forward, and the numerous smaller tales that all seem to effect the same catastrophic result.

[1] - http://johndclare.net/Russ12_Jokes.htm

[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Svidler

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