Habits of Highly Miserable People • Hacker News Board

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#301

Post by DoreenMichele » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

jtmb wrote: post #300

DoreenMichele wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I have often gotten reactions of pity and the like for speaking openly of my experiences. I do my best to give polite push back against it. I was raised with the idea that the shame is on the rapist, not the victim. I was raised with the idea that people who treat the victim in a shaming way are part of the problem. Being open about this aspect of my life is probably the single most "political" thin…

How would you recommend expressing support, not minimizing these experiences while also not assuming victimization?

Some years ago, an internet friend of mine asked me for advice concerning an appropriate Christmas present for a woman he and his wife were helping while she left an abusive marriage. I tried to delicately hint that her husband had to also be raping her, given the description I was hearing. I failed to be subtle and he did an internet search and verified that what I was saying was true: she had all the markings of a seriously traumatized rape victim.

What I told him was that at some point she would divulge this to him and he needed to deal with his own feelings before then and not make the discussion about his feelings. He needed to respect the fact that she had already survived a lot of terrible things and yet found the strength to leave and start rebuilding her life.

It went like I predicted. He was able to be supportive and she made great strides in the following months towards putting her life back together.

It's fine to validate that a person was, in fact, victimized so long as the focus is on "That person did you wrong" and not on pitying the person who was mistreated.

The problem is that this is old news to the victim but new information for the person they are telling. And the person they are telling typically has a very big emotional reaction. After that, the conversation is about that person's feelings, identity and mental models, not about the feelings, identity and mental models of the person disclosing that they were assaulted.

The strong emotional reaction of the person receiving the information helps to keep victims silent and trapped in their silence because these reactions either burden them with dealing with this new person's feelings etc or it makes the victim feel guilty of emotionally and psychologically harming other people in their attempts to try to get help of some sort.

Having been victimized, most survivors are pretty horrified at the idea of knowingly and intentionally hurting other people. This is a huge barrier to reaching out for support.

Validation is really powerful and healing. Just don't make your feelings and your identity their problem.

By identity, I mean in part things like insisting you are a nice, good, caring, helpful, knowledgeable person while doing counterproductive things. A lot of people feel a tremendous need to have their own goodness validated in such situations and it often comes at the expense of the person who confided in them.

Don't try to fix them. Attempting to fix them just reinforces the idea that they are broken.

Listen. Validate that what was done to them was terrible and wrong. Give them breathing room to feel their feelings, whatever they are, and validate that it is okay to feel whatever they feel about that.

If it is hard for you to hear and if you have no idea what to do, say so in a way that doesn't blame them, such as "No one has ever confided something like this in me before, so I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm honored that you would entrust this information to me. I'll do my best, but I'm sure to make some mistakes."

Then, if they give you push back on something, respect that. Don't try to insist they are wrong and broken and you are right.

That's kind of rambly and I'm not at my best today. Hopefully, there are a few useful takeaways in there that will serve your needs.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#302

Post by rosser » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #249

rosser wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: Why didn't the victims of the African slave trade rise up against the plantation owners? Or: Why didn't she fight back? General form: Why don't victims behave the way I think they should, in circumstances I've never experienced ?

They did, many times, and were invariably violently put down. Only much later they did succeed. Also remember that it was the most docile that were captured.

...and many of the rest were killed, because they were resisting, and/or to cow others who might have tried to resist.

You're missing the point: telling victims they're victiming wrong (literally, as in, "You're doing that wrong", which is so unbelievably much of this thread) is bullshit. It's especially so if you have no relevant experience on which to make that judgement, and that goes double if your likelihood of having that experience is structurally negligible. Hand-waving about how someone should handle something that has never — and, for practical purposes, will never — happen to you is ludicrous on its face.

EDIT: Phrasing

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#303

Post by loco5niner » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 11:38 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #259

ThePadawan wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and went through similar experiences. I will however mention for the other readers that not all modes and schools of therapy see "digging up the past" as essential, in fact I believe this is a point of contention. Methods such as Cognitive Behavioral Theory, I believe, focus much more on "OK, but how does that influence your behavior? Should it?"

I was in couple's counseling briefly with my husband. He also was very briefly in therapy on his own. He was extremely introverted. He hated telling all this private stuff to a counselor. One day, I told him "You don't have to go to therapy. I don't care if you go to therapy or not. Therapy is a means to an end. Therapy per se doesn't matter. I only want our marriage to be better. I don't care how that happens." So h…

Great point. As a fellow introvert, I think I would also be better off.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#304

Post by empath75 » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:43 AM UTC

mobilefriendly wrote: post #89

empath75 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent three months traveling through Central America. You really quickly get used to a constant sense of danger — the water and food can kill you, the bugs can kill you, the roads can kill you, the police and gangs could kill you — hell even taking a hot shower there is tempting fate since they have electric heaters in the shower heads and basically no electrical safety standards to speak of. You either have to cow…

Survivor bias...I wonder if all the people who died hitchhiking or cliff diving feel the same way. We won't know because they're dead.

The vast, vast majority of people who go to those places don’t die.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#305

Post by ehnto » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:28 AM UTC

lists wrote: post #114

RIMR wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. There's a huge difference between saying "I have severe depression, and it takes great effort for me to get through a day without buckling" and saying "I have severe depression, so my daily mental breakdowns aren't my fault".

Those aren't mutually exclusive

True, but I think they were alluding to the difference in outlook that suggests who takes responsibility for the downsides. One way is using it as an excuse to dismiss others concerns and the other way is having empathy toward how your situatiom affects others and acknowledging their side of the same challenge.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#306

Post by jasonszhao » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:35 AM UTC

foxhill wrote: post #71

having been, for want of a better term, ‘highly miserable’ in the past, the entirety of this article comes across as insidiously toxic and detrimental to the mental well-being of those who are suffering. there is a.. loosely similar CGP Grey video, which approaches the matter in a much more rational context [1] for anyone suffering, i emplore you to not read this and watch this instead; [1] - https://youtube.com/watc…

Thank you for the video.

As someone who is still in school and struggles with emotion/time management/procrastination, I was particularly hit by "focus on goals that are after which you wish to achieve." People around me have pointed this out to me, but it was only until recently did I realize how serious it was.

I think that my impulsive nature and addiction to novelty fuel this problem. Even browsing Hacker News is a manifestation of this. HN always has some cool idea that I could be studying or hacking on when I have free time. But I spend too much time thinking about possibilities than getting done what's right in front of me, because I'm addicted to novelty. I especially neglect school work, which isn't boring at all and rather fascinating and useful, and instead try to find weird things to explore. My huge queue on Pocket is one of many testaments to this. The result is poor, and I feel miserable and disappointed in myself.

Of course, as the video touches upon, modern technology (social media, apps, even internet pornography) exploits humans' desire for novelty (though as previously explained, I think I'm far more vulnerable than average). The video helped me see the connection between my habit and this tendency.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#307

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:37 AM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #231

throwawaymath wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the reaction you're "supposed" to get by thinking about that? I took a moment to think about it and I don't think I got it. My reaction was, "Well then I probably die", but I don't feel particularly different about the present. If that's the thing I'm supposed to feel then so be it, but I feel Seneca intended for some greater profundity, or he would dispense with the mental theatrics. What am I missing? Does…

This is the first time I've heard the quote, but I think it's to appreciate that life is short and could end at any time, and while bleeding out you'd realize that worrying about these long-term things was a waste of time.

That’s part of it, but mostly, it’s about thinking if the worst thing that can happen and how would you deal with it: do you bleed out peacefully or crying?

We are always thinking nothing will happen to us, yet, we’ve all here have had problems, accidental or due to our own stupidity, that have already changed the course of our life for the worse.

Seneca says it’s worth thinking about that every day to find peace of mind.

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#308

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:38 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #265

PascLeRasc wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I've heard the quote, but I think it's to appreciate that life is short and could end at any time, and while bleeding out you'd realize that worrying about these long-term things was a waste of time.

In the more likely case that you don't die tomorrow worrying about long term things usually pays off.

And what if you lose your fingers and can’t code anymore?

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#309

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:40 AM UTC

posterboy wrote: post #270

throwawaymath wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the reaction you're "supposed" to get by thinking about that? I took a moment to think about it and I don't think I got it. My reaction was, "Well then I probably die", but I don't feel particularly different about the present. If that's the thing I'm supposed to feel then so be it, but I feel Seneca intended for some greater profundity, or he would dispense with the mental theatrics. What am I missing? Does…

it's distraction, nothing more. By the way, I recently noticed my veins are not symmetric on both hands. I'm not sure what to think of that either.

[deleted]

Re: Habits of Highly Miserable People

#310

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:49 AM UTC

tripzilch wrote: post #285

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a better exercise. I stole it from Seneca. Look at the back of your wrists: see those fragile greenish-blue veins? What if tomorrow - while thinking about some problem with money or love - you trip and fall, and a particularly sharp rock on the ground or a shard of glass on the street cuts one of those thin exposed blue-green veins open?

I'm probably doing it wrong but the first thing I think of is "better do that on a busy street, hopefully there's someone that knows to bind off my wrist or something[0]" Do I need to imagine that I'll bleed out alone, with everyone walking past me as if I don't exist? Because 1. I don't like that exercise and 2. it mostly makes me consider to what extent I'm currently surrounding myself with people that dis-compassi…

You’re not doing it wrong; perhaps you’re more worried about how others will treat you because you feel you’re lacking friendships?

Most, if not all, would watch you bleed out: its the bystander effect. See the Kitty Genovese murder. Are you bothered by this?

You could have died. I fell and hit a glass table too and now I have a scar right next to my eye, less than a finger width away.

I could have lost the eye but I don’t like to think about it either. There’s a lot of stories where I could have been maimed, and I do have injuries that have left me weaker.