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USB Type-C is still a mess

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Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#171

Post by camgunz »

reaperducer wrote: post #88
camgunz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's USB-C dongle is the least functional, most overpriced dongle there is. It has to have a huge margin.

Apple's USB-C dongle... Which dongle do you mean? Apple has about five different USB-C dongles, each for a specific purpose. Do you mean the $19 USB-C to old USB dongle? How is it less functional than any other USB-C to old USB dongle? It seems to achieve its stated purpose. What functionality do other USB-C to old USB dongles have that it lacks?

I mean the first Google result when you lookup 'apple usb-c dongle' [1]. It's $70.

[1]: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-a...

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#172

Post by FooHentai »

USB-C has somehow made docking stations take a big backwards step. Which is a huge shame because we finally got to a good place with USB3 docking stations, where weird ports on the underside of specific laptops could finally go away in favour of a highly standardized one-cord docking solution.

18 months ago we deployed USB3 docks into a sizeable office space. We were able to standardize on a model that works reliably, every time. The only down-side is the dock can't provide power.

Now we're looking at a similar situation and USB-C is the 'obvious' choice. But it's a far more complicated situation.

Some devices will take a charge, some won't, and you have to match up the power input/output requirements quite carefully. It's a more complex landscape than PoE, for no good reason.

Thunderbolt docks are the only ones we've found to provide reliable operation, but they also suffer from weird docking/un-docking behaviour as well as massive security flaws since you lost a lot of the 'standard' USB safe/abstraction layer stuff by plugging in what is effectively a DMA device.

Yuck, frankly. This shouldn't have been so difficult - Just take USB3, introduce a Power-over-USB capability, and bump the speed. But no.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#173

Post by digi_owl »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #161
digi_owl wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. There is no IC in there, but there are small segment in the cable spec that talks about resistors on one of the lines that signal the type of cable available. So you put one resistor in for a low rated C to C cable, another for a higher C to C rated, and yet another for an A to C converter (indicating that the C end should fall back to the older battery charging spec). Guess how many fly by night cable ma…

Power Delivery is not just for USB-C. It was defined for use with USB 2.0 and up on any of the legacy connectors.

While true on paper, i wonder if it will ever be implemented as such. And frankly it may well be yet another black mark on the mess that is USB "C" (or 3.1 or whatever).

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#174

Post by aekotra »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #112
Latteland wrote: post #14

Not putting enough ports on devices is a crucial problem. Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-a. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. The new google pixelbook 2018 is a great form factor, except they only have 2 usb-c, they dropped usb-a. The reason was probably…

"All so Apple could sell stupid dongles" I hear this charge a fair amount, but it seems really unlikely that Apple moved to USB-C solely to "sell stupid dongles," for the fairly obvious reason that you don't need to buy your dongles from Apple. USB-C is indeed still a mess, but it's a non-proprietary mess. As far as I know, Apple's 100% USB-C laptops are the first machines Apple has shipped in their history that don'…

> I hear this charge a fair amount, but it seems really unlikely that Apple moved to USB-C solely to "sell stupid dongles," for the fairly obvious reason that you don't need to buy your dongles from Apple.

This is classic techy naivety.

When Apple marketing looks at what percentage of their customers almost certainly going to buy dongles exclusively from them, what number do you think they come up with? If you're under 50% you are WAY off.

Tens of millions of dog-loyal Apple customers don't even suspect that using another company's dongle is even an option. And how insane is the markup on Apples dongles? Use your head, man.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#175

Post by magduf »

wvenable wrote: post #167
magduf wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not supposed to charge and listen to wired audio without an adapter. You're supposed to use bluetooth headphones called "AirPods", which cost far, far more than regular wired headphones. If you don't like this and resent being pushed to buy very expensive accessories and dongles, then maybe Apple isn't the company for you.

What's the explanation for every other phone company removing the ports? No phone manufacturer benefited financially from the purchase of my Bluetooth headphones.

I have no way to prove this, but the standard explanation is that other companies are stupid and just want to ape Apple, thinking they'll somehow capture Apple's loyal customers. Cargo-cult mentality.

Of course, there's also the fact that extra ports take up more space, and it's easier to just eliminate features that not enough customers care about. But enough people seem to be complaining that it looks like it really is just cargo-cult behavior, just like these companies have needlessly aped Apple on other design decisions instead of trying to pursue other market niches.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#176

Post by mjevans »

MBCook wrote: post #82
imran3740 wrote: post #27

> Port shortages Would it hurt anyone to put two USB-C ports on a smartphone? Thank goodness my phone still has a 3.5mm jack, but some people would like to charge their phone and listen to (wired) audio without having to buy an adapter. And it's not like this is an uncommon use case either, anecdotally some of my friends with iPhones face this issue.

Would you really have a second USB-C port over just keeping the headphone jack?

I prefer keeping the headphone jack, but am not against a second USB-C port. If you make the device thick enough for a headphone jack to work properly then you've got room for a reasonably large battery and the extra ports without any issues.

Mobile phones are thermally constrained these days anyway.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#177

Post by aekotra »

reaperducer wrote: post #29
matthewmacleod wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple with their stupid single port is just idiotic This is on a single specific device. The best port selection with usb-c is on the 2015 chrome pixel laptop. 2 usb-c, 2 usb-b You mean USB-A. Just having a single usb-c has caused endless pain, all so apple could sell stupid dongles. Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external dis…

Nobody I know using MacBooks has a particular problem with this. A dongle would be required in most cases to connect to an external display in any case; it's not like Apple are selling more dongles. Agreed. My wife has a MacBook with a single USB-C port. Having only one port has exactly zero impact on her. The only thing she uses it for is for charging, and very occasionally plugging in a tiny hard drive to look at h…

> Apple would probably rather have the shelf space for higher-margin in-house products than use the space for SKUs from another company.

Are you for real? The margins on their dongles are astronomical!

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#178

Post by chx »

mmagin wrote: post #168
chx wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no innovation in this sector. It needed Apple to kick Ti's sorry ass to get us to Ti 83 even instead of the Ti 82. It says quite a lot every Thunderbolt enclosure uses this chip: there are no other USB PD controllers (USB PD is used to negotiate Alternate Modes). Another example: you can buy a small and cheap USB C to DisplayPort adapter with power passthrough (< 20 USD). You can buy a (relatively) small and…

Is this because of patents, or is this because nobody wants to do the R&D?

The latter. The entire area of vaguely PC peripheral chips died in 2014 when MegaChips took over ST's DP chips.

Consider how much a 10 GbE card still costs -- this is the same speed! Apparently, it's not cheap making chips working with 10-20-40 gigabit/s line speeds but the market demands low cost. USB C wouldn't get far if a plain USB C to DP adapter would cost a hundred bucks.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#179

Post by p1mrx »

chx wrote: post #136
exmadscientist wrote: post #22

Speaking as someone in the industry who's worked on Type C-enabled gadgets, half the bloody problem is that the Type C products offered by the major semiconductor companies are _terrible_. For sake of a simple example, consider designing a rechargeable flashlight. For whatever reason, you'd like it to be rechargeable over a USB-C port. You also want the flashlight to charge as fast as possible from whatever power sou…

There's no innovation in this sector. It needed Apple to kick Ti's sorry ass to get us to Ti 83 even instead of the Ti 82. It says quite a lot every Thunderbolt enclosure uses this chip: there are no other USB PD controllers (USB PD is used to negotiate Alternate Modes). Another example: you can buy a small and cheap USB C to DisplayPort adapter with power passthrough (< 20 USD). You can buy a (relatively) small and…

To anyone as confused as I was: the parent comment refers to the Texas Instruments TPS65982/TPS65983, not the graphing calculators.

Re: USB Type-C is still a mess

#180

Post by mariusz331 »

caconym_ wrote: post #71
sebazzz wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience the connector from Apple is far more reliable than USB C. USB C is a rounded flat rectangle with a piece of plastic in the center and pins between, which is small and can easily be damaged. Lightning on the other hand is a solid metal connector with the pins/contacts on the outside, which is much more sturdier. Lighting also does a nice "click" when connected.

My experience says the opposite. I don't have an iPhone anymore, but when I did I was constantly having issues with the Lightning connector not connecting. OTOH, all my USB-C devices, quite a few at this point and some I've had for years, have always worked flawlessly with regard to the port. Also, all other things being equal, I would rather have the contact springs on the connector rather than the port so that if t…

This could be because lint built up in your charging port. It happened to me a few times. The techs at an Apple store can clean it out for free.
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