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GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

amasad.me

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Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#161

Post by sodafountan »

sdoering wrote: post #12
amasad wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Programming is unprecedented in it's power for upwards class mobility. We're just scratching the surface. But it's the only thing we have that: a) doesn't require a lot of resources to make a meaningful contributions (access to a computer and the internet) that could land you a really good job. b) it's probably the only industry that doesn't requires formal education. Case in point, only one person at my comp…

On the other hand, if you have two shitty jobs to make ends meet, how to program and contribute to OSS after that? There are cases. But most probably are survivorship bias. I would bet, most current IT professionals have a at least lower middle class background. If I take a look at my company, that at last rings true. Not sure about the US, though.

Quit one job and live below your means.

I don't quite understand why people seem to think success doesn't require sacrifice anymore. You can either sacrifice your time and money for a more streamlined education and get a college degree or you can sacrifice a lot of your time and take a risk to self-educate.

There's really no middle ground and both strategies can land you a job if you're good, but becoming good always requires effort and some sacrifice.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#162

Post by gitgud »

Nekorosu wrote: post #19
sanxiyn wrote: post #6

As someone without a degree who got the first job based on open source work, this rings true.

It's anecdotal evidence. I don't have a degree and I don't contribute to open source because I have something better to do in my free time. Still, I have a decent developer job.

Well, what's better to do in your free time?

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#163

Post by ImaCake »

I think this misses the point. A resource like GitHub shouldn't just be used by the underpriviliged to score a better paying job. It should be used by underpriviliged groups to gain access to the tools and knowledge that rich groups take for granted. Then the underpriviliged can build their own system without simply buying into the existing systems.

This is the same argument we make against closed access research papers. The goal isn't to make it easier to hire poor people. The goal is to give poor people knowledge and resources so they can build themselves up.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#164

Post by forapurpose »

mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

> the ideological basis of the current cultural norm of "university==well-paid job" is entirely decadent

That assumes there is an ideological basis. It's not hard to rationally connect education with talent and skill, even if we debate the strength of the effect. It also assumes it is a 'norm', not a clear market signal - business unquestionably pay more to people with college degrees; you can argue the reasoning, but the fact is indisputable AFAIK. Yes, there are exceptions, but we are talking about vast trends; YMMV.

People have complained since probably the first written rant that others don't work hard enough, or hard as they did in my day, or as hard as I do, etc. I'm not sure it tells us much besides the consistency of humanity, its capacity for work, and its perception of self and others.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#165

Post by bskap »

user5994461 wrote: post #157
gmjosack wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first 8 years of my career was in South Florida progressing from tech support -> web hosting sales -> NOC -> Jr. Sys Admin -> Sys Admin -> Sr. Sys Admin. Only then did I make the move to the Bay Area to work for Google in 2010. I don't think everyone should take the path I did. If you can afford it, college is a really good option and I would never discourage someone from going that path. But there are other path…

>>> College is definitely the most typical paths but there are still paths for humble people willing to start that the bottom and work hard. College just isn't an option for everyone unfortunately. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I will just make a cultural parenthesis on that last sentence. In the USA, degrees are expensive, the only reason they are not for everyone. It limits the supply of degrees and…

What measure are you using for "much more common"? According to the OECD data, the US is 7th for percent of population 16-64 with a post-secondary degree, and Luxembourg is the only western European country ahead of the US (the others are Canada, Russia, Israel, Japan, and South Korea).

If you limit it to 25-34 year olds with at least a 4 year degree, the US falls to be in the middle of the pack compared to western Europe- behind Switzerland, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, and the UK, but ahead of Norway, France, Spain, and Germany.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#166

Post by Chyzwar »

watwut wrote: post #23

Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. And close source developers take issue with it not just because of privilege, but also because yo…

OSS is better, even MS now advocate for Open Source. OSS is just a hiring signal. You need to review around 100 CV for a single position, you need these signals. In the same time if you want to progress quickly to the Senior position you need to prove your worth. What is a better way: describing how great developer you are in Cover Letter that no one read or having OSS contributions.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#167

Post by aitrean »

ahartmetz wrote: post #123
KirinDave wrote: post #105

> Because open-source is good at cutting through the bullshit, it also makes it an equalizer. That's one heck of a premise.

You mean open source doesn't cut through the bullshit? It totally does. People can put anything on their resume and sometimes bullshit their way through questions trying to figure out whether they've actually done these things. If all else fails, they can claim trade secrets. Open source contributions can't be faked (except by real name collision), and in any case, there is much more detail available than a few lines…

Open source contributions do not cover even scratch the surface of depth needed to be a software developer. Oh, you resolved that issue in a related repo? That's awesome. Now, for our repo we need you to design an entire system effectively, work well with our other developers, and meet whatever deadlines we prescribe. Of course, if you're someone that accomplishes all of that in the open source community, then your open source work definitely 'cuts through the bullshit'. But the people who meet those criteria are a small subset of even the active open source community. In general, someone's 50 line commit to an open source repo does not tell me much more than them knowing the technology, and being able to complete tasks within a time period of undefined length.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#168

Post by watwut »

Chyzwar wrote: post #166
watwut wrote: post #23

Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. And close source developers take issue with it not just because of privilege, but also because yo…

OSS is better, even MS now advocate for Open Source. OSS is just a hiring signal. You need to review around 100 CV for a single position, you need these signals. In the same time if you want to progress quickly to the Senior position you need to prove your worth. What is a better way: describing how great developer you are in Cover Letter that no one read or having OSS contributions.

Majority of MS developers work on close source. They are not slacking in work afaik and majority don't do open source in their free time. Even if they would hire on oss, majority of new emplyes would be disappointed to find that they are under too much pressure to produce in work to continue.

Overwhelming majority if companies don't have 100 CV on position, our salaries would go down quick if that would be case.

I never wrote cover letter. Is that still done for tech positions? Haven't heard of it.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#169

Post by jaredklewis »

user5994461 wrote: post #102
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

>>> I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. It's easy to say coming from a generation where higher education was not the norm. A 20 year old saying he dropped out of high school will not be received well in any job interview. 98% of the population can do better than that.

I'm on a hiring email list. There is no shortage of candidates that have jumped through all the hoops.

But preciously because basically all other candidates have graduated from high school and university, it would certainly help the dropout candidate stand out. If the candidate seemed bright and impressed me in other ways, I would say it was an edge as it is evidence of self-motivation and independent thinking. Of course the candidate would have to impress in other ways, for example, by having a substantial side project.

Just me perhaps, but I think it would be fun to work at a place where coworkers had a variety of educational backgrounds.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#170

Post by 0xmaverick »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #69
josteink wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your company allows you to use buggy components but doesn’t allow you to fix bugs... Then that’s a company with some pretty serious problems, and it’s going to show in all of their products. If you as a developer decides to stay in that company then that will also reflect on you.

Oh right yes I’ll just quit my job and not pay my mortgage so I can work for a company that has great values.

Don't worry this is part and parcel of HN posts. "If you don't do things the RIGHT way, you must be incompetent". With no regard for one's circumstances or context.
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