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GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

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Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#151

Post by gmjosack »

user5994461 wrote: post #144
gmjosack wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I barely graduated high school in 2002 and there was definitely an emphasis on higher education at that time. My family didn't have the money to pay for college and I knew I wouldn't do well in college, I had a hard time learning from teachers, and didn't even take my SATs. I'd messed around with HTML and copying/pasting JS snippets but was not an early coder by any means. I got a job doing tech support for a web hos…

It's great and I wish everyone to achieve the same career progression during their lifetime. Now, let's keep in mind that we are approaching 2020. The high school dropouts are facing support guys, online MOOC students and boot camp graduates who are all searching for the same developer job with no experience. The competition is more intense than ever. Also, your text implies that you work in the bay area. It's an ord…

The first 8 years of my career was in South Florida progressing from tech support -> web hosting sales -> NOC -> Jr. Sys Admin -> Sys Admin -> Sr. Sys Admin. Only then did I make the move to the Bay Area to work for Google in 2010.

I don't think everyone should take the path I did. If you can afford it, college is a really good option and I would never discourage someone from going that path. But there are other paths, if you work hard, and have some luck.

I'm now in a position that interviews and helps make hiring decisions. I still know a lot of people from South Florida that have spread out all over the country. There are many of us who don't come from traditional backgrounds that have progressed into leadership roles where we impact hiring who do not require college.

Yes it is very competitive, yet so many companies are constantly turning people away, people with and without college degrees. I'm so happy that there are so many more resources today compared to what I had when I started. MOOCs are awesome and I use the to this day for continuing education. I've been part of apprenticeship programs to train bootcamp graduates as SREs. And I've helped mentor people internally transferring from support into SRE.

College is definitely the most typical paths but there are still paths for humble people willing to start that the bottom and work hard. College just isn't an option for everyone unfortunately.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#152

Post by devxpy »

I hate how people don't mention the quality of work one is doing on Github, or anywhere for that matter.

I've personally seen people make one-liner commits deliberately, to get a good graph.

On the other hand, some people write code because they actually created something real, which solves a real problem.

And the difference is quite clear if you're looking for it.

Arguably, the github community suffers from the "celebrity" effect that facebook/Instagram have.

But I digress.

Comparing a Github account to a college degree is crazy.

Once a piece of paper, and the other is a full history of the guy's work, presented at a mouse click away.

I am about to clear the first year of my univ, and honestly couldn't care less about what the univ taught me. I can't even recall most of it.

What I can show you is my Github profile, where I did real work, and built real software that actually works (including some IoT projects that I personally use myself, every day)

Not to mention the other projects that didn't made on Github, but did make it on a Bitbucket private repo.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#153

Post by jve »

jasoncartwright wrote: post #5
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #2

The author makes a valid point, however the pushback against using OSS as an important hiring signal, is that most people are not privileged with enough spare time to work on OSS outside of their day job. Eg if you have a family, long commute etc. And if they already are an excellent programmer and hitting all expectations, why should they do this? In fact, an employee who’s spending 5-6 hours/day on side projects mi…

> most people are not privileged with enough spare time to work on OSS outside of their day job I keep hearing this. Do you have any data to back it up?

Count me as a data point. I have a family, children, relatives, friends and a house to keep in order. And some other things that takes time.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#154

Post by gmjosack »

user5994461 wrote: post #150
gmjosack wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find people with college experience are much more likely to be biased against people without than vice versa. But that is just my anecdotal experience. Google and Dropbox definitely had more people with degrees but a decent amount of people without. The hiring pipelines were more biased towards recruiting new grads out of good schools but we never turned down solid people with good experience. I generally like to w…

Well, it takes a degree or 5 years of relevant experience to enter the front door. Better have both. I wouldn't call it a bias, companies have different expectations and needs. At big name, there are a hundred people applying every day, the bar is higher than no degree and/or little experience. There is also the fact that the lack of education puts one at a disadvantage. For instance, I know of co workers who ask que…

I think it's a bias to assume the candidate won't understand those things or be suitable for the job based on lack of college alone. If you require people to understand complexity, compilers, and graphs to do the job effectively then test for those. I've encountered plenty of people with degrees who similarly didn't understand those concepts.

I definitely agree that lack of education is a disadvantage, it just means you have to start a different way. that could mean your first few years is coming in through a side door before you start getting relevant experience.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#155

Post by noitsnot »

koboll wrote: post #106
user5994461 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. It's easy to say coming from a generation where higher education was not the norm. A 20 year old saying he dropped out of high school will not be received well in any job interview. 98% of the population can do better than that.

I've never been asked about any education in developer interviews, only experience. Obviously YMMV, but after a couple years of experience, employers simply stop caring about education level.

I'm 100% sure I am passed-over and filtered out because I don't have a CS degree. Nevermind my experience, I don't hit the checkbox. HR and IT managers have it in their mind they NEED it. However, I relate well to managers without a CS degree.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#156

Post by user5994461 »

gmjosack wrote: post #154
user5994461 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it takes a degree or 5 years of relevant experience to enter the front door. Better have both. I wouldn't call it a bias, companies have different expectations and needs. At big name, there are a hundred people applying every day, the bar is higher than no degree and/or little experience. There is also the fact that the lack of education puts one at a disadvantage. For instance, I know of co workers who ask que…

I think it's a bias to assume the candidate won't understand those things or be suitable for the job based on lack of college alone. If you require people to understand complexity, compilers, and graphs to do the job effectively then test for those. I've encountered plenty of people with degrees who similarly didn't understand those concepts. I definitely agree that lack of education is a disadvantage, it just means…

I think we both agree. The lack of degree will mean years of bad jobs and learning the hard way though practice, before it can be compensated. It's years of struggling on the job, instead of in the college.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#157

Post by user5994461 »

gmjosack wrote: post #151
user5994461 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great and I wish everyone to achieve the same career progression during their lifetime. Now, let's keep in mind that we are approaching 2020. The high school dropouts are facing support guys, online MOOC students and boot camp graduates who are all searching for the same developer job with no experience. The competition is more intense than ever. Also, your text implies that you work in the bay area. It's an ord…

The first 8 years of my career was in South Florida progressing from tech support -> web hosting sales -> NOC -> Jr. Sys Admin -> Sys Admin -> Sr. Sys Admin. Only then did I make the move to the Bay Area to work for Google in 2010. I don't think everyone should take the path I did. If you can afford it, college is a really good option and I would never discourage someone from going that path. But there are other path…

>>> College is definitely the most typical paths but there are still paths for humble people willing to start that the bottom and work hard. College just isn't an option for everyone unfortunately.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I will just make a cultural parenthesis on that last sentence.

In the USA, degrees are expensive, the only reason they are not for everyone. It limits the supply of degrees and make them more valuable.

In other parts of the world, mostly thinking of western Europe here, higher education is free or affordable. Degrees are much more common and of higher level, while the job market is pretty bad. It's really shooting oneself in the foot not to get one.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#158

Post by satysin »

I like platforms like GitHub as it makes it easy to have a public portfolio of your work. Not that there is anything wrong with not having a portfolio but it certainly makes life easier when trying to show clients/employers your skill set.

Pretty much all designers have some kind of public portfolio such as a website with example of their previous work. I see GitHub as a centralised (and, for the most part, respected) place to put your work for developers, even if you don't want to use it for collaboration but simply as an advertising platform.

However it does lead to the same kind of problem you get with employers not looking at a candidate who doesn't have a LinkedIn profile. You will inevitably miss out of some excellent people who don't wish to/can't use such a platform.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#159

Post by abecedarius »

duckduckno wrote: post #115
mmjaa wrote: post #72

I have been working productively as a systems software developer for 32 years. I do not have a degree; I'm a high-school dropout. I've built systems you've probably used, and/or may still be using. The #1 technical lever I have found worth exploiting, worth far more than anything a university can provide, is the willingness to get the job done. It hasn't mattered if I wrote CP/M code ISR's, PROGRESS 4GL modules, Unix…

I've recently dropped out of highschool and I've been considering two options: promptly returning to school and finishing my degree or dedicating time to self-educate via the internet. Which pathway would you suggest? I have always felt conflicted about our current education system because it undervalues creativity and disingenuously puts forth the notion that school is for learning when clearly it is not. Teachers c…

Read Bryan Caplan’s The case against education and consider how his cynical quantitative model applies to your specifics. (Or find his spreadsheet online, but the book’s arguments are worth thinking about.) My guess is that the high school diploma is worth the annoyance, unfortunately (though I skipped it myself back in the 80s. Different time.) College more likely not if you can get a foot in the door as a programmer without it. Also, if you can learn math and CS without being forced to.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#160

Post by aitrean »

satysin wrote: post #158

I like platforms like GitHub as it makes it easy to have a public portfolio of your work. Not that there is anything wrong with not having a portfolio but it certainly makes life easier when trying to show clients/employers your skill set. Pretty much all designers have some kind of public portfolio such as a website with example of their previous work. I see GitHub as a centralised (and, for the most part, respected…

Design work is extremely different from developer work. Design work is usually publicly available, and each piece often stands on its own. Paid developer work is usually not publicly visible, and a lot of projects require working with teams. The type of work that goes on a Github profile, therefore, is usually unpaid work where you get to create your own project, and pick your own codebase. In this sense, you're comparing apples to oranges.
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