Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 249 posts

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#201

Post by dannypgh »

theamk wrote: post #196
chc wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me your bank details, are you free? If it's a disaster and I charge $10000 for a bottle of clean water, are you free? If a society requires you to work in order to live but only offers you poor options for work, are you free? We generally talk as though, as long a…

I always considered "free" as lack of "coersion", where "coersion" has an agent/subject that can be removed to make situation better. Under that definition, the answers are: > If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? No -- the subject is you and your gun, if you remove them the situation improves. > If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me y…

> or to allow living without work.

I join in the argument that labor is coerced into participating in the free market in the US. The agent/subject that you're missing is the government and their enforcement of laws pertaining to property.

I would argue that labor is only as free as the social net for unemployed is strong. The coercion comes from the fact that your landlord can have the sheriff evict you (or your bank can foreclose and do the same) and the place where you help yourself to food without paying can have the police arrest you. Likewise if you try to oppose that physically, or, say, gain employment by selling illicit drugs, there's a system already in place to confine you to a jail or prison.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#202

Post by flomble »

conanbatt wrote: post #187
jpao79 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of this article: Google and Facebook contribute zero economic value. That's a big problem for trade. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2016/10/2...

Really, 0 economic value. Nobody gets anything of value from using those services, its just wasted time.

The linked article is about how despite those services obviously having value to their users, they aren't accounted for in economic statistics, e.g. in measuring productivity, because they are "free" (i.e. paid for by subjecting oneself to advertising/tracking).

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#203

Post by adventured »

losteric wrote: post #150
dandare wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the article? Gig economy isn't taking over, it slightly declined from 2005.

Considering they drew parallels with strike breakers, I don't think that was the point. Many Americans are stuck with dead-end low-wage low/no-benefit part-time jobs (plural) trying to make ends meet - the weak job market offers few alternatives, while the gig economy (ubiquitous temp workers) stands as an implicit threat against workers organizing.

> the weak job market offers few alternatives

The job market in the US is booming. It's the exact opposite of a weak job market.

The manufacturing unemployment rate is 2.x%.

GDP will grow by a trillion dollars in 2018, nearly equal to the entire size of Mexico's economy. The US economy will expand at a rate three times faster than the EU economy this year (this quarter will be seven times faster than the growth rate in Germany, and Japan's economy is shrinking again by contrast).

Nearly one million full-time jobs were gained in the month of May [1], with a large decline in part-time jobs. That's the largest full-time monthly job gain in 20 years.

The U6 unemployment rate is back down to a level that is historically considered very healthy.

Wages are rising at the fastest rate in a decade.

There are more job openings than there are people looking for jobs, the first time that has happened in decades.

[1] https://i.imgur.com/Tiarfdh.jpg

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#204

Post by adventured »

dannypgh wrote: post #201
theamk wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered "free" as lack of "coersion", where "coersion" has an agent/subject that can be removed to make situation better. Under that definition, the answers are: > If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free? No -- the subject is you and your gun, if you remove them the situation improves. > If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me y…

> or to allow living without work. I join in the argument that labor is coerced into participating in the free market in the US. The agent/subject that you're missing is the government and their enforcement of laws pertaining to property. I would argue that labor is only as free as the social net for unemployed is strong. The coercion comes from the fact that your landlord can have the sheriff evict you (or your bank…

> I would argue that labor is only as free as the social net for unemployed is strong.

You're arguing that labor is only free so long as it can hold a gun to someone else's head (the evil 10%) and force them to support said labor via welfare by taking the fruits of the labor that the 10% produce. As though one has an inherent right to someone else's very life and property (if you did, you wouldn't need a gun to steal that property). Communism, because it has worked out so well over the last century.

It's a contradiction. You're actually saying some people get to be 'free' using coercion and overt threats of force, by enslaving other people to fulfill their needs via welfare transfers based on the taxation of other better off persons income.

The system of welfare transfers, much less actual Socialism, requires extreme force to be applied at all times to keep the system functioning, as such there can be no freedom at all - there's always a gun pointed at your head.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#205

Post by switch007 »

dpwm wrote: post #129
stallmanite wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone comment on why this is the case? It seems ridiculous on it's face.

It's a UK thing -- everything has to not work in the most ridiculous way possible. This also applies to anti-money-laundering stuff: it's better to affect loads of people really badly who are most certainly not money laundering as long as it does not affect the people who are money laundering at scale. That said, there are people who don't really understand that people on social media paying you for access to your ba…

This is painfully accurate. Buying a house now involves proving that your funds came from bona fide sources (i.e. that you are not a criminal), thanks to new anti money laundering regulations.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#206

Post by danieltillett »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #170
autokad wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "dogma" You have a dogma yourself. that's ok, just be aware that you have one, and are espousing one. > "Then get them to acknowledge that the free-market argument is a model that needs to be backed by empirical evidence to be accepted as actually describing reality instead of being just an untested hypothesis." The free market is one of the most tested ideas out there. > "They use things like unions and government…

It's ironic. The free market requires a form of socialism to actually work. Education, Infrastructure, Military, etc. All socialistic enterprises funded by the general fund. Free enterprise does not work without a socialistic framework to support it. For a pure unregulated free market see Ethiopia.

I think you actually mean Somalia as Ethiopia is far from pure unregulated free market.

Ethiopa is one of the places I most want to visit before I get too old.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#207

Post by LoSboccacc »

afarrell wrote: post #82
mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

> really hard to do because of catch 22 To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this: - Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal. - Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion o…

Same situation I had moving to ireland. Cant have account without proof of address, can’t have proof of address (an utility paid in your name) without renting and very hard to find a rental unit without a letter from the bank.

Eventually the employer strongarmed the bank to open an account for me.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#208

Post by dymk »

themagician wrote: post #140
orangecat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one was going around thinking, "I wish I could drive people around for extra money." I'm pretty sure more than zero people have wanted part-time work with more flexible schedules than were commonly available. (See patio11: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/993186705850052610 )

Your example is a tweet from a wealthy software developer in 2018? When unlicensed, unisnured people started driving for Uber and Lyft it wasn't because they wanted part-time work with "flexibility". It was because it was right after 2009, the unemployment rate was 10%, and people were desperate.

Are software engineers no longer people? His example was perfectly fine, given what you asked for.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#209

Post by lucasverra »

afarrell wrote: post #82
mrtksn wrote: post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

> really hard to do because of catch 22 To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this: - Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal. - Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion o…

Open an account on new digital banks. Revolut kinda rocks

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#210

Post by vmateixeira »

ed_balls wrote: post #124
afarrell wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> really hard to do because of catch 22 To expand on what mrtksn means: in the UK, it is difficult to get a bank account without proof of address. It is also difficult to rent a flat without a UK bank account. There are a few ways around this: - Have a friend put you on their water bill and use this as proof of address. I suspect this is illegal. - Join a flatshare without getting on the lease, pay for your portion o…

my mate opened a back account in 2010 because he ordered Burton catalogue and he got a letter with the address.

Back in 2015 I ordered a Vodafone Pre-paid SIM to a friends address and that was how I got "my proof of address".
Post reply on HN