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Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

nytimes.com

151–160 of 249 posts

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#151
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's a free market! workers are free to not participate in the gig economy. /s

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

There's an episode of econtalk with Elizabeth Anderson you should listen to. She basically says employers are similar to communist dictatorships. In the same way that the 'freedom' to move from one communist dictatorship to another isn't real freedom, the 'freedom' to move from one employer to another isn't real freedom. Check it out, she makes the argument better than I do, obviously.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#152
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most iconic places in London. I worked at the Shard, I worked at the Cafe Royal, I worked at Four Seasons in events where celebrities like Victoria Beckham or Prince Harry were guests. The the "finest, the most iconic p…

I think it's mostly about the workforce supply flexibility. Agency workers are paid more than the regular staff at the same position and there is the agency fee on top of the hourly rate. We were also called "candidate" as if we are permanent job candidates. That was actually true for some people who actually persued jobs in the hospitality industry and when someone gets a permanent job the employer pays the agency a…

Yup. It's interesting. On the one hand, they could have an employee with impeccable skills, background, training, etc, but have to pay them well, guarantee benefits, hours, etc.

Or they can outsource the contract to a 3rd party, let that company deal with coming up with hired guns, liability, etc, and just hope it all works out. And if it doesn't, it's a lot easier to fire a contract company and find a new one, than to fire actual employees.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about an actual social safety net though?

Those systems have a nasty habit of running out of other people's money.

Seem to work pretty okay in the rest of the developed world.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#154
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's a free market! workers are free to not participate in the gig economy. /s

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

Short Uber etc. specific point: "Uber's market is not a free market".

But more broadly… it depends whether someone is a dogmatic free-marketer fundamentalist or just someone who was swayed by the arguments from that dogma. For the fundamentalists, forget it.

For those actually open-minded, take the scientific argument. Start with confirming agreement that you're both pro-social instead of anti-social (you both actually want what maximizes overall flourishing and well-being and don't prioritize some other value or dogma). Then get them to acknowledge that the free-market argument is a model that needs to be backed by empirical evidence to be accepted as actually describing reality instead of being just an untested hypothesis.

If you can get them to thus at least accept that understanding the complex factors in play is daunting and we can't just take an elementary principle and blindly apply it to any situation conclusively… well, then you can have a discussion with them over the next couple years about behavioral economics, psychology, culture, power…

My general go-to is emphasizing that employer power comes largely from being organized. It's not like each interviewer completely makes their own decision about hiring anyone with no rules or restrictions from the company (unless the interviewer is a sole-proprietor themselves hiring one other employee or contractor). The power in the corporation comes specifically from the organized structure of the company. The individuals on the other side of a contract are divided. They use things like unions and government to have power in solidarity, and without that, they can never have comparable power in negotiations.

So, either we accept the impulse for workers to build organizations or use government for solidarity or we insist that companies shouldn't exist either and need to just be free-market masses of independent actors too or we drop the pretense that we're describing some sort of equal-enough, voluntary free-market negotiation.

Good luck!

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the article? Gig economy isn't taking over, it slightly declined from 2005.

Considering they drew parallels with strike breakers, I don't think that was the point. Many Americans are stuck with dead-end low-wage low/no-benefit part-time jobs (plural) trying to make ends meet - the weak job market offers few alternatives, while the gig economy (ubiquitous temp workers) stands as an implicit threat against workers organizing.

A dead-end job is still a job. Unemployment rates are historically low. In the future, most people will become “gig” workers of some sort due to ubiquitous automation.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that this thread and the "chatbots aren't so great after all" thread hit the front page on the same day. Anyone who actually thought people gave a shit about chatbots was either deluded, a chatbot API salesman, or a manager/owner trying to cut costs by downsizing their call/chat support center. Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill…

>> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners was either deluded or a shill. That's quite a generalization you're making. Just because business owners are benefiting by pushing wages as low as the market will bear and reaping profits/growth, doesn't mean consumers/drivers aren't benefiting from the arrangement as well. Service providers are granted an additional at-will income…

I think its easy to be fooled.

I am a Software Developer with a decent salary for where I live. I got offered a job a couple of years ago, where 3/4 of my wage was through an international company and the rest through a normal Spanish one. When I saw the amount going into my account every month, I thought I had hit the jackpot as it was way more than I expected.

A while later when I got converted to a full Spanish contract, and my manager advised me to make sure I wasn't getting screwed. It was only then that I realized I hadn't actually been getting the pension payments on the 3/4 of my international contract up until then. What looked like a good deal hadn't actually been one at all.

I would be surprised if people less educated than me would understand all the hidden costs.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#157
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

there isn't one, unless you think you shouldn't be free to make decisions like participating in the gig economy.

the full claim being countered wasn't "workers should be free to participate in the gig economy", it included "it's a free market" which is the part more easily countered.

Uber's market is a market, but it's certainly not a free market.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#158
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's a free market! workers are free to not participate in the gig economy. /s

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

If I put a gun to your head and say "Your wallet or your life," are you free?

If I lay a trap, and you fall into it, and I offer to release you if you give me your bank details, are you free?

If it's a disaster and I charge $10000 for a bottle of clean water, are you free?

If a society requires you to work in order to live but only offers you poor options for work, are you free?

We generally talk as though, as long as there is no specific person intentionally coercing you, you're free to choose. But those particular elements don't actually make much difference to your freedom. It seems to me that being set up with only unfavorable options is different from being really free to choose.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#159
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

there isn't one, unless you think you shouldn't be free to make decisions like participating in the gig economy.

That's not terribly helpful.

Plenty of people take that freedom as an axiomatic, inviolable good or right, but reasonable people can have different values.

Some people believe that those freedoms are necessarily a net win for the economy, but that's a pretty shallow argument too.

Maybe workers' rights are a race to the bottom, a tragedy of the commons -- perhaps some small amount of regulation would be good for business and for workers, by forcing companies to spend a small amount more to get a more sustainable workforce without giving up advantages to competitors.

Obviously these freedoms and protections exist on a continuum. We've mostly come down on the side of minimum wages, which is a compromise on those fundamental, absolute freedoms -- in a sense all "workers rights" are curtailments of "jobseekers rights".

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#160
post #42

When I first arrived in London my English was not good enough to speak on the phone, I had no idea what the London job market for developers looked like, I had no idea where should I live and where should I settle. So for the first 3-4 months, I did some wine waiting as a gig(agency work, no fixed place or hours. Like with Uber, you provide your own gear - like uniforms, bottle openers etc.) at the finest, the most i…

While I did enjoy the story, I don't think I agree with your conclusion.

What most people seems to think is happening is that as information (and related technologies like communication) has become abundant it also became really important. And that people working in the "gig economy" is adapting to this reality.

I don't think that is how things work. When something becomes abundant it is the other things that become important. As information has become abundant things like housing, education, security, recognition and contacts is what lets you leverage the abundance of information to create opportunities.

People working in the "gig economy" isn't adapting to a new reality, they are victims of the people who are now favored because of their access to housing, education and security.

This is of course counter to what should be happening. Any nation who want to take advantage of the abundance of information should make those other things readily available instead of letting them be captured by rent-seekers.

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