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Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

nytimes.com

161–170 of 249 posts

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#161
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it's a free market! workers are free to not participate in the gig economy. /s

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced.

We're all trading time and willpower for money. If the gig economy has a poor ROI, people can end up in poverty traps - stuck working a couple shitty jobs because they need the money to survive, but the jobs consume so much time/will-power that they can't pursue alternatives.

This becomes a huge issue for Uber-style companies where workers buy their own tools (cars), in exchange for uncertain per-trip wages with no benefits. They're called "contractors", but realistically what can they do if Uber "fires" them? Work for Lyft? Same shit, different logo.

Uber's practices are outright deceptive - they compare very optimistic ridesharing wages to hourly employee wages, without considering their car ownership/fuel/taxes/maintenance/insurance costs. I did some napkin math a while back which suggested quite a few drivers are actually losing money in the long-run (primarily maintenance and lower auto resale value).

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#162
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

Short Uber etc. specific point: "Uber's market is not a free market". But more broadly… it depends whether someone is a dogmatic free-marketer fundamentalist or just someone who was swayed by the arguments from that dogma. For the fundamentalists, forget it. For those actually open-minded, take the scientific argument. Start with confirming agreement that you're both pro-social instead of anti-social (you both actual…

> "dogma"

You have a dogma yourself. that's ok, just be aware that you have one, and are espousing one.

> "Then get them to acknowledge that the free-market argument is a model that needs to be backed by empirical evidence to be accepted as actually describing reality instead of being just an untested hypothesis."

The free market is one of the most tested ideas out there.

> "They use things like unions and government to have power in solidarity, and without that, they can never have comparable power in negotiations."

law is really important for most forms of economic systems to work. I think the fact that social media and perception drivings things so much could have a positive outcome in this area. Companies should see the welfare of their employees as an important role in making the world 'better'.

I see a lot of tech companies saying they want to make the world a better place, yet for instance, they have abysmal 401k matching plans. melinials are not saving enough for retirement, and that bad behavior in tech is not helping the future crisis. I wish a tech company would decide to be a true leader on this

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#163
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who actually thought the gig economy was helping anyone but business owners Consumers were losers?

Good riddance to the poorly upkept taxis with the aggressive drivers, and expensive rides. I feel like the drivers are not paid adequately though, esp. given the hidden expenses. I talk with them regularly and think many don't realize those costs. I always tip as a result, and I think Uber/Lyft give me better drivers as a result, though I can't be sure.

> I feel like the drivers are not paid adequately though, esp. given the hidden expenses. I talk with them regularly and think many don't realize those costs.

I think that these kind of thoughts are simply not economics. If driving is bad money after all of that, eventually people will realize and it will all come crumbling down. But it cant be true if drivers keep working for years like this.

It is also a stance that you can take only because you think there is something the government should do about it. There a a lot of carrers that are not financially sensical by some interpretation. Should artsists be banned or licensed to limit the number? Should Actors? Should QA analysts? etc etc.

My point is that even if it is a bad deal for drivers, its their choice to make, and its not going to lead to a better outcome to make the choice for them.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#164
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend used to use this argument when I complained that Uber / Deliveroo were a bag of crap. I didn´t have a great counterargument, I just mumbled something about workers rights. What is a convincing argument that this line of thinking is wrong?

The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced. We're all trading time and willpower for money. If the gig economy has a poor ROI, people can end up in poverty traps - stuck working a couple shitty jobs because they need the money to survive, but the jobs consume so much time/will-power that they can't pursue alternatives. This becomes a huge issue for Uber-style compa…

> The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced.

Your actual post is mostly reasonable arguments, but this premise is not realistic. This is stretching the word 'coerced' to the point where it doesn't mean anything. The fact that resources are limited and we need the average person to add about as much value as they consume is not coercion. It is a (very sad) fact. There is no element of force involved except maybe the enforcement of property rights, which is one of the most reasonable things we ask our governments to undertake.

> They're called "contractors", but realistically what can they do if Uber "fires" them? Work for Lyft? Same shit, different logo.

Are these people born with "only allowed to work as a car driver" stamped on their forehead? If the market rate driving cars is so terrible, they need to find a different industry. The difficulties of moving between industries are real, I'll acknowledge them and say maybe there is a role for the government to facilitate this aspect. However, as a practical point, I don't think governments generally do. When we as a society decide who is responsible for employees moving between industries, we basically have to choose between this being the employers problem, this being the individuals problem or this being someone else's problem. I'm very happy to contend that, even though it is not very fair, the person who has the most control is the individual and they are the only one who is ultimately responsible for themselves.

There are a lot of problems with companies like Uber. The car drivers are clearly employees in every way except technicalities, and the practice of making them bring their own tools is reprehensible. But it is by far better to try and solve that problem by encouraging the growth of better alternatives than by dropping the hammer of regulation. When they regulated the taxi industries, my memory is in a lot of major areas the actual taxi drivers didn't end up benefiting and random licensed taxi owners did. Depends on the country and city.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering they drew parallels with strike breakers, I don't think that was the point. Many Americans are stuck with dead-end low-wage low/no-benefit part-time jobs (plural) trying to make ends meet - the weak job market offers few alternatives, while the gig economy (ubiquitous temp workers) stands as an implicit threat against workers organizing.

A dead-end job is still a job. Unemployment rates are historically low. In the future, most people will become “gig” workers of some sort due to ubiquitous automation.

The job market is so bad people are willing to scrounge for scrapes - their reserves have been depleted and credit maxed out. Unemployment is low because people can no longer say no.

One of many reasons people draw parallels between today and the Gilded Era or Roaring twenties.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#166
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced. We're all trading time and willpower for money. If the gig economy has a poor ROI, people can end up in poverty traps - stuck working a couple shitty jobs because they need the money to survive, but the jobs consume so much time/will-power that they can't pursue alternatives. This becomes a huge issue for Uber-style compa…

> The labor market is never free, because living isn't free - almost every participant is coerced. Your actual post is mostly reasonable arguments, but this premise is not realistic. This is stretching the word 'coerced' to the point where it doesn't mean anything. The fact that resources are limited and we need the average person to add about as much value as they consume is not coercion. It is a (very sad) fact. Th…

> Are these people born with "only allowed to work as a car driver" stamped on their forehead?

Did you see what I said about poverty traps? Once someone is stuck, it's very challenging to break out without outside help.

> The difficulties of moving between industries are real, I'll acknowledge them and say maybe there is a role for the government to facilitate this aspect. However, as a practical point, I don't think governments generally do. When we as a society decide who is responsible for employees moving between industries, we basically have to choose between this being the employers problem, this being the individuals problem or this being someone else's problem. I'm very happy to contend that, even though it is not very fair, the person who has the most control is the individual and they are the only one who is ultimately responsible for themselves.

Personally, I'd like to see free or heavily subsidized public adult education. There is no need to regulate unethical employment practices when laborers have the freedom to seek employment elsewhere - the market can sort it out. But we need freedom of horizontal movement first.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#167
I have no data for this, but I suspect an ethnographic study of gig workers would find their behaviors mirror that of entrepreneurs. If true, you can probably draw a lot of conclusions about gig work from all the other studies done.

In short, I suspect gig work is much more mentally taxing than typical work, since it isn't reliable or rooted in routine. I think that's why gig work is estimated at roughly the same percentage of the population as entrepreneurs.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#168
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone comment on why this is the case? It seems ridiculous on it's face.

AML regulations and scams. Apparently in the past people with questionable sources of income used to open fake accounts to move money and the banks were happy to do it until the regulators slammed them with fines. Also, when you have a bank account you can get things like a phone contract with a direct debit payment. Apparently, some people made it a habit to leave the UK without paying their bills after they are don…

It is simply incredible how governments do never decided that banking is a public service and should be regulated as such (it's been what? 300 years? Maybe that's still too little)

A passport is enough to prove your identity isn't fake. But since it's not enough to give you a credit line, banks simply refuse the service. There are way too many people with no access to banks.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering they drew parallels with strike breakers, I don't think that was the point. Many Americans are stuck with dead-end low-wage low/no-benefit part-time jobs (plural) trying to make ends meet - the weak job market offers few alternatives, while the gig economy (ubiquitous temp workers) stands as an implicit threat against workers organizing.

A dead-end job is still a job. Unemployment rates are historically low. In the future, most people will become “gig” workers of some sort due to ubiquitous automation.

Giving everyone a job is not, and should never be, the goal of a society. In the early twentieth century American workers were killed fighting for the right to support themselves working 40 hours a week but for much the population that option has evaporated. I know people in the bay area working 70 hours a week at dead end jobs barely making ends meet; a fact I consider unacceptable given the wealth they are surrounded by.

Re: Maybe the Gig Economy Isn’t Reshaping Work After All

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short Uber etc. specific point: "Uber's market is not a free market". But more broadly… it depends whether someone is a dogmatic free-marketer fundamentalist or just someone who was swayed by the arguments from that dogma. For the fundamentalists, forget it. For those actually open-minded, take the scientific argument. Start with confirming agreement that you're both pro-social instead of anti-social (you both actual…

> "dogma" You have a dogma yourself. that's ok, just be aware that you have one, and are espousing one. > "Then get them to acknowledge that the free-market argument is a model that needs to be backed by empirical evidence to be accepted as actually describing reality instead of being just an untested hypothesis." The free market is one of the most tested ideas out there. > "They use things like unions and government…

It's ironic. The free market requires a form of socialism to actually work.

Education, Infrastructure, Military, etc.

All socialistic enterprises funded by the general fund.

Free enterprise does not work without a socialistic framework to support it.

For a pure unregulated free market see Ethiopia.

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