Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss • Hacker News Board

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#201

Post by hexane360 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 7:07 PM UTC

ravar wrote: post #177

abandonliberty wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of sleeping is explained by metabolism reduction/calorie conservation?

Probably none considering that calories are collected while awake, and there exist animals that collect calories during the night and the day.

I agree with your conclusion, but this isn't sound logic. This assumes food is never supply-limited. If it is, then it could be advantageous to lie dormant for a period to allow supply to regenerate. Imagine a farmer who plants food (ideally low maintenance food) and then hibernates until it is fully grown.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#202

Post by leshow » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #144

trendia wrote: post #137

Genetics play an important factor. CYP1A2, one of the enzymes that metabolizes caffeine, varies by as much as 40x between individuals. In those with a high level of the enzyme, caffeine is metabolized quickly, so they can drink coffee in the afternoon and still fall asleep. They are less likely to get anxiety from caffeine, and do not suffer from a higher risk of heart attacks with coffee consumption. In contrast, a…

My dad (in Italy) drinks his last espresso after dinner, at ~9pm, every night, and soundly falls asleep by 10:30am. Perhaps he has a high level of CYP1A2? I am wondering if there's a cheap but effective method of measuring it.

I realise you said 'perhaps' but I have to comment on how much I dislike this kind of backwards reasoning. I used to compete in bodybuilding, and I heard arguments like this all the time. "I'm not making progress, I must have low testosterone", "I must not be metabolizing protein", etc. The number of possibilities is huge, you really can't say with any certainty what the cause is.

Most likely he just has a tolerance to caffeine from drinking it. It sounds like he drinks it all day.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#203

Post by leshow » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

lithander wrote: post #178

trendia wrote: post #137

Genetics play an important factor. CYP1A2, one of the enzymes that metabolizes caffeine, varies by as much as 40x between individuals. In those with a high level of the enzyme, caffeine is metabolized quickly, so they can drink coffee in the afternoon and still fall asleep. They are less likely to get anxiety from caffeine, and do not suffer from a higher risk of heart attacks with coffee consumption. In contrast, a…

That explains a lot. I really can't relate do other coffee drinkers describing their experience. I often drink 0.4 liter of black coffee to get rid of the late evening sleepyness when I want some hours of productive free time for gaming or programming before bed. When I try to sleep ~3h later the effects of the coffee are largely gone and I fall to sleep within 5 minutes. I guess I've got a lot of that enzyme. ;) (wh…

> I guess I've got a lot of that enzyme. ;) (which is nice)

You can't make an assumption like that, you have no evidence and there's many possibilities.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#204

Post by lambda » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

merinowool wrote: post #187

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

This is a sound advice. I spent 10 years of my life trying to squeeze as much time awake time as I can using tons of coffee and that almost ruined my life and got me nowhere. I have managed to get some success in life once I gave up on that idea and was productive when I was feeling productive without forcing it. If I can't do anything during the day? Fine. If I feel sleepy? I go to sleep. It was important though, to…

I quit coffee for a year or two a while back. It didn't seem that hard to kick; a week or two of headaches and irritability, and then it was fine.

I picked up the habit again just because it's nice to have that warm, tasty beverage to start the day, and decaf just isn't the same. As long as you keep it to one in the morning and maybe one in the early afternoon, it's fine.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#205

Post by jbrownpa » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #29

jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

Apart from caffeine, yerba mate also contains the stimulants theobromine and theophylline, which makes the effects qualitatively different from only ingesting caffeine. I found yerba mate works very well as a pre-workout drink. I think yerba mate makes me more stimulated but less "wired" than coffee. I have mainly been making tea with the actual mate leafs and not so much the sugary club mate.

yes. they metabolize differently and at different rates.

theobromine takes longer for your body to remove than caffeine. (also the main stimulant in chocolate, and the one that is bad for dogs, because they can't metabolize it).

mate has more theobromine than coffee, so it's effects should last longer. just measuring caffeine is not a good way to find out the total stimulant effect.

(see wikipedia)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#206

Post by jacobolus » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

eigenspace wrote: post #172

abandonliberty wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of sleeping is explained by metabolism reduction/calorie conservation?

In humans, metabolism only goes down ~35% at its very lowest point during deep sleep. In other phases of sleep, your metabolism is ~15% lower than during waking time. If sleep were for metabolic savings, it would be an incredibly inefficient way to go about it. In some senses, wakefulness may be thought of as neurotoxic and much of whats going on during sleep is centred around repairing the damage caused by being awa…

Sleep deprivation doesn’t just affect cancer. With immune suppression chronic viral infections like warts flare up after a day or two of sleep deprivation.

Allergies get worse.

Anxiety shows up more easily (in response to milder stressful stimuli), has stronger effects, and takes longer to subside.

In general cognitive function is impaired: alertness, memory, attention span, ...

The skin and hair get greasier.

...

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#207

Post by jacobolus » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

hexane360 wrote: post #201

ravar wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably none considering that calories are collected while awake, and there exist animals that collect calories during the night and the day.

I agree with your conclusion, but this isn't sound logic. This assumes food is never supply-limited. If it is, then it could be advantageous to lie dormant for a period to allow supply to regenerate. Imagine a farmer who plants food (ideally low maintenance food) and then hibernates until it is fully grown.

Something like human hibernation is reportedly possible for people who live isolated lives in places with tough winters (can’t remember where the article I read about this a few years ago was). It doesn’t happen in the modern world though: abundant food, many distractions, artificial lighting, climate controlled spaces, ...

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#208

Post by samsonradu » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

malnourish wrote: post #200

merinowool wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a sound advice. I spent 10 years of my life trying to squeeze as much time awake time as I can using tons of coffee and that almost ruined my life and got me nowhere. I have managed to get some success in life once I gave up on that idea and was productive when I was feeling productive without forcing it. If I can't do anything during the day? Fine. If I feel sleepy? I go to sleep. It was important though, to…

I quit tobacco about 4 years ago after using for 7 years. I agree that quitting caffeine is more difficult, but I think part of that is social. I can enjoy sharing a cup of coffee with my SO just about anywhere without any dirty looks.

Oh yes, coffee is one of the less harmful pleasures of life! I would never consider quitting it, that doesn’t mean I’d neglect sleep though.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#209

Post by throwawayzxcz » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

madcaptenor wrote: post #199

eigenspace wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but my comment was aimed at people trying to get less sleep in order to fit more productivity into the day. I think there are situations where one has no choice but to be sleep deprived but those are extremis situations like war and having a newborn baby. Sleep science suggests that if we must be sleep deprived we should do everything we can to limit it. If you're the parent of a newborn, that likely mea…

I think the usual advice is to "sleep when the baby sleeps", because they actually sleep quite a lot, just not when you want them to! What I really need is an algorithm that would predict, when I put the baby down, how long I should expect her to sleep (and therefore if I should grab a nap).

have you tried just tracking the her sleeps on a spreadsheet or similar? You might see a pattern emerge.

Had friends that did this. We never did, but after 3 kids and ~7 years of pretty consistently broken nights from one or other of the kids, I sometimes wish we did.

My only other advice would be to take turns with the other parent to give each other a break. Whether it be week on/week off or night on/night off, and may involve someone sleeping in another room to get away from the disruption.

I optimistically think a good night's sleep is just around the corner. Cultivating feelings of love and patience is well worth the effort.

Having kids that don't sleep well is a special kind of torture, I can see how it would break some people.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#210

Post by eigenspace » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 11:16 PM UTC

petters wrote: post #196

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

Arguments by evolution are a bit problematic for modern-day humans. As gwern writes here: https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin > However, we are not in a natural situation, but a profoundly unnatural one. For children in particular, Matricciani et al 2012 demonstrated a drastic fall in their sleep time over the past century, indicating that they are not in any state of nature. But you are of course right that sleep is ess…

To be fair, the fact that children have undergone a drastic fall in sleep time is not a good thing, and arguably, we can see that from evolutionary reasoning. But yes, I do agree with you that applying such arguments to humans is dangerous territory.

My thinking is that evolutionary arguments should be somewhat trustworthy concerning humans and sleep because there's no evidence that we've found anything to replace sleep in humans. I think that the idea that caffeine could be an effective replacement for sleep silly because caffeine is something animals would have evolved to secrete if it was beneficial for them to do so.

That said, if we found an intervention that significantly increases people's sleep quality and efficiency or to mimic all the benefits of sleep in waking humans then yes evolutionary arguments about humans and sleep go out the window.