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Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

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Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#191

Post by hyperpape »

_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Fwiw: my doctor once told me that at two cups a day, he thinks it would be irrelevant. That's a bit higher than the 200 mg cited in the wikipedia page.

It definitely is a consideration if you're drinking a lot of coffee.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#192

Post by jadedhacker »

mkirklions wrote: post #104
_ak wrote: post #16

Interesting detail: look at where they authors are working. This is military research. And I'm not surprised. The problem of having to keep soldiers alert during long phases of sleep deprivation has been around since the early days of modern warfare.

Yes, this didnt seem like it was useful for daily use. 48 hours without sleep isnt realistic for most cases, and I dont think these results have anything to say about daily caffeine. Also, I think the best advice is to learn your body. I cycle caffeine every few months. 2 cups all at once before I need 5 hours of productivity.

Yea, I think the 48 hr sleep deprivation is not applicable to most people. The task also is a kind of "vigilance" task. I don't know if it applies to any kind of productive thinking. They also studied chronic sleep deprivation, maybe that would be helpful for people.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#193

Post by eloff »

merinowool wrote: post #189
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

This is dead end and really should be illegal to force employees to do that. I hate when companies are trying to squeeze every inch of you, just to get their sorry startup some funding to burn. If you have so much work given to do that you need to "medicate" yourself with stimulants, then you are getting shafted. I find it bizarre that such exploitation culture is allowed. Always thought that Germany has fair employm…

It is illegal to force a drug on your employees. IANAL, but that would go badly. That doesn't mean they can't have it available on tap, which is how they tend to do it. Lots of companies make free coffee available to their employees.

Startup founders on the other hand always have more work than time, and they need to be careful not to burn themselves out by overdoing it on the stimulants and the work.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#194

Post by aantix »

flipp3r wrote: post #34
_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Wow, this is actually a thing! I thought it was just me. As someone who used to drink a LOT of cola-cola during their teens, caffeine really fucked me up good. I only noticed I was dependant (addicted) on caffeine after a friend pointed out I only felt good again on certain days after coming back from a client where there was no cola available. I took a little bottle with me to the client and felt "normal" that day.…

The drinking of soda also strips the body of magnesium. If you're a heavy soda drinker (or coffee), try supplementing with Magnesium Glycinate and you will feel a world a difference in your calmness. https://www.iherb.com/pr/KAL-Magnesium-Glycinate-400-400-mg-...

(try to get 1000mg a day)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#195

Post by merinowool »

eloff wrote: post #193
merinowool wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is dead end and really should be illegal to force employees to do that. I hate when companies are trying to squeeze every inch of you, just to get their sorry startup some funding to burn. If you have so much work given to do that you need to "medicate" yourself with stimulants, then you are getting shafted. I find it bizarre that such exploitation culture is allowed. Always thought that Germany has fair employm…

It is illegal to force a drug on your employees. IANAL, but that would go badly. That doesn't mean they can't have it available on tap, which is how they tend to do it. Lots of companies make free coffee available to their employees. Startup founders on the other hand always have more work than time, and they need to be careful not to burn themselves out by overdoing it on the stimulants and the work.

The worst I have experienced is when there was also "unlimited" beer on tap. Founders often - practically every evening - were getting drunk in the office with other employees "brainstorming". It was a cycle - hangover in the morning, boosted awareness with coffee and red bulls every hour or so and in the evening "curing" hangover with beer. That was sick (in a negative sense).

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#196

Post by petters »

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

Arguments by evolution are a bit problematic for modern-day humans. As gwern writes here: https://www.gwern.net/Melatonin

> However, we are not in a natural situation, but a profoundly unnatural one. For children in particular, Matricciani et al 2012 demonstrated a drastic fall in their sleep time over the past century, indicating that they are not in any state of nature.

But you are of course right that sleep is essential for performing optimally.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#197

Post by STRiDEX »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #28
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

"restrict myself to mornings only" Do yourself a favour and take the next step. Stop ingesting daily and reserve coffee for sleep emergencies and medicinal purposes. Even a single daily cup of coffee is enough to build a tolerance to it. Besides affecting alertness, caffeine is also a very effective way of increasing the potency of many drugs. For me, Advil by itself has little effect, but in combination with caffein…

> but in combination with caffeine it works great

I recently heard about goody's when we ran a marketing campaign for them.

https://www.amazon.com/Goodys-Extra-Strength-Headache-Powder...

The nascar themed marketing was probably why i hadn't heard of it but I did end up trying it and the mixture of the two works great

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#199

Post by madcaptenor »

eigenspace wrote: post #184
madcaptenor wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But sometimes you can't get enough sleep. One example is if you have a newborn baby. Ask me how I know.

Fair enough, but my comment was aimed at people trying to get less sleep in order to fit more productivity into the day. I think there are situations where one has no choice but to be sleep deprived but those are extremis situations like war and having a newborn baby. Sleep science suggests that if we must be sleep deprived we should do everything we can to limit it. If you're the parent of a newborn, that likely mea…

I think the usual advice is to "sleep when the baby sleeps", because they actually sleep quite a lot, just not when you want them to! What I really need is an algorithm that would predict, when I put the baby down, how long I should expect her to sleep (and therefore if I should grab a nap).

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#200

Post by malnourish »

merinowool wrote: post #187
eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

This is a sound advice. I spent 10 years of my life trying to squeeze as much time awake time as I can using tons of coffee and that almost ruined my life and got me nowhere. I have managed to get some success in life once I gave up on that idea and was productive when I was feeling productive without forcing it. If I can't do anything during the day? Fine. If I feel sleepy? I go to sleep. It was important though, to…

I quit tobacco about 4 years ago after using for 7 years. I agree that quitting caffeine is more difficult, but I think part of that is social. I can enjoy sharing a cup of coffee with my SO just about anywhere without any dirty looks.
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