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Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

consumeraffairs.com

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Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#271

Post by telchar »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #169
ASalazarMX wrote: post #110

What's the deal with the recent flood of anti-Tesla news? Does someone want to buy Tesla stock, or is Tesla just no longer cool?

as an amateur Musk-mythologist, I would guess something we can't see is going on behind the scenes. Since around the time he started dating Grimes, Elon's general tone has gotten more combative. Whether he's deliberately courting bad press or it's a byproduct of something else isn't clear to me, but I would hazard a guess that it's part of something larger. Part of why I find the Elon Musk story so fascinating is bec…

This is an interesting take. Would you care to speculate about what may be going on under the surface?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#272

Post by cmurf »

s3krit wrote: post #249
dpwm wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean that if a US citizen goes on holiday to a country in the European Union, that they are a data subject in the European Union?

Yes, as I understand it, that is correct. When you are in a country that is a member of the EU, your data held by companies is subject to the GDPR.

If I go on holiday to an EU country, which (Google) emails, chats, searches become subject to GDPR? All those sent/received only during that holiday? Is Google (or whoever) really going to attach some metadata just to that time frame saying data collected on that date range is subject to GDPR?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#273

Post by tzs »

moreira wrote: post #244
delinka wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who has jurisdiction to enforce that? Can a US citizen (who has never been in the EU) sue in an EU court to compel release of the US citizen's data from the US division/unit/hq/whatever? Does that court have authority to compel the release by the US division? Can the EU court compel a US court to find similarly? Point: how is the GDPR ever going to be enforced between US citizens and US companies-with-an-EU-prese…

Agreed, it’s not likely to be enforced. Note that you cannot sue anyone over the GDPR, however. That is a fundamental misunderstanding that I keep seeing repeated - the GDPR only gives people the right to report companies to the relevant authority. The authority can then investigate and issue a warning/fine as they see fit.

> Note that you cannot sue anyone over the GDPR, however. That is a fundamental misunderstanding that I keep seeing repeated - the GDPR only gives people the right to report companies to the relevant authority

It also gives the right to to sue. See Articles 79, 80, and 82.

There's a nice summary here: https://privacylawblog.fieldfisher.com/2016/getting-to-know-...

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#274

Post by tzs »

manigandham wrote: post #253
abritinthebay wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can a US citizen (who has never been in the EU) sue in an EU court to compel release of the US citizen's data from the US division/unit/hq/whatever? No, they'd sue to get it from the EU one. As it's part of the same company. The rest of your questions are predicated on the core misunderstanding you have of this so don't apply. > how is the GDPR ever going to be enforced between US citizens and US companies-with-an-…

You actually seem to be misunderstanding since GDPR is not about having people sue. They can only report companies and regulators take it from there, if they want to. Also 4% of revenue has nothing to do with enforcement and reach of the EU agencies against US companies.

There's a right to sue, which includes suing for compensation, in Articles 79 and 82.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#275

Post by cosmojg »

tzs wrote: post #227
breakingcups wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you're a US citizen* doing business with a US-based company you don't have the right to request your own data, even if that company also does business in Europe. * and there are European citizen dual passport shenanigans

If it is a US company that does business in Europe, but is not established in the Union, you are correct. If the company is established in the Union, then GDPR applies to all personal data processing it does. See Article 3(1): "This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processin…

What does "established in the union" even mean?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#276

Post by ovao »

lolc wrote: post #270
ovao wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, but I don't believe Musk's vision has changed, and Tesla's internal policies regarding the release of crash data to consumers doesn't say anything about the 'awesomeness' of the car itself. Your ownership experience of the car will be affected by Tesla's policies, for sure, but regardless of what Tesla does or does not do with crash data, the car itself doesn'…

> Maybe there's an element to this that I'm simply missing, From a consumer standpoint you're buying a black box controlled by a company that frequently behaves in a overtly hostile manner towards the "owners". Imagine Apple not letting you use the accelerometer or GPS sensors in your phone. Instead they'd just collect telemetry from it. Now imagine you claim a "spontaneous shattering of the screen". To counter this,…

Those aren’t the issues the commenter to which I responded claims to be concerned with. You’re making an argument based on separate concerns, which is valid, but those aren’t the things that we were discussing.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#277

Post by bdamm »

tzs wrote: post #227
breakingcups wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you're a US citizen* doing business with a US-based company you don't have the right to request your own data, even if that company also does business in Europe. * and there are European citizen dual passport shenanigans

If it is a US company that does business in Europe, but is not established in the Union, you are correct. If the company is established in the Union, then GDPR applies to all personal data processing it does. See Article 3(1): "This Regulation applies to the processing of personal data in the context of the activities of an establishment of a controller or a processor in the Union, regardless of whether the processin…

In the United States, "The Union" is sometimes a referral to the union of the states, e.g. the United States. I assume you're talking about the European Union, but since I'm a U.S. Person, I'm not really sure.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#278

Post by smnrchrds »

gimmefreedom wrote: post #262
smnrchrds wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having the choice to not buy a Tesla. If Tesla's business model proves successful, all other car makers will copy it, and then it doesn't matter which brand you buy. Look at the TV market. You technically have the choice not to buy a "Smart TV," which sells your info to god-knows how many third-parties and spies on you 24/7. But good luck finding one. Sony, Samsung, LG? They all have the same spyware features. Your…

How about create a purchasers’ union and use your collective purchasing power to influence the behavior of companies, the way that companies use their power to control consumers. I don’t have any problem with your union; in fact, I might join such a union. Just don’t force everyone to join it, which is what happens when laws are made for everyone as a result of the bad decisions of some. I don’t know if such a union…

First of all, I don't think it would be practically feasible to do this in the real world. As the old saying goes, if person A finds a way to get 100 million dollars by making 100 million people lose $1 each, he would have every incentive and tool to get that money and no one would have any incentive to stop him. Imagine the enormous costs of forming a purchasers' union, both direct and transaction costs. You can never convince enough people to join one to make it have any negotiation power.

Second and more importantly, the companies have found a way to circumvent one of the most important and fundamental pillars of our civilization, access to judicial system, through forced arbitration and class action waivers. If they had the power to get rid of something this fundamental, I am sure they will find a way to defeat any attempt to form a union like the one you advocate though laws, contracts, EULAs, etc.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#279

Post by vkou »

danso wrote: post #196

I have an anecdote, somewhat in defense of Tesla: a few years ago I was the victim of an armed robbery. One of the things I lost was my iPod touch, which was logged into a few media services, including Netflix. A few days later, logging into my Netflix account, I noticed that my "Recently played/Continue watching" list had some things I had never watched (including the show "Prison Break"). I called Netflix customer…

Under GDPR, Netflix would probably have to divulge this data.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#280

Post by slededit »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #169
ASalazarMX wrote: post #110

What's the deal with the recent flood of anti-Tesla news? Does someone want to buy Tesla stock, or is Tesla just no longer cool?

as an amateur Musk-mythologist, I would guess something we can't see is going on behind the scenes. Since around the time he started dating Grimes, Elon's general tone has gotten more combative. Whether he's deliberately courting bad press or it's a byproduct of something else isn't clear to me, but I would hazard a guess that it's part of something larger. Part of why I find the Elon Musk story so fascinating is bec…

His earlier company PayPal was also pretty customer hostile locking up money for indeterminate amounts of time. They also played the "were not a bank even though we look a lot like one" card.

I think this is just how he operates.

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