Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#211

Post by Animats » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

robrenaud wrote: post #36

This is a bunch of PR nonsense. > When asked why Tesla has an apparent policy requiring drivers who want their own data to file for a subpoena, a spokesperson framed it as a privacy issue. > “We handle all customer data in accordance with our Owner’s Manual and privacy policy, which clearly outlines the type of data we collect and the lengths that we go to protect a customers’ privacy in the process,” Tesla said via…

That's not even accessing Tesla's data. That's just accessing the airbag system's event data recorder, which is a US-mandated device in the airbag controller, not a Tesla thing.

Airbag controllers have a circular buffer of the last 15 seconds or so of the vehicle basics - speed, steering angle, acceleration, braking. No GPS. That data can usually be retrieved from the wreckage after a crash. This requires physical access to the vehicle. The data is used to analyze airbag failures, especially unwanted airbag deployments, and for crash reconstruction.

Airbag controller data is much less extensive than what Tesla seems to sending back to the mothership.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#212

Post by kolpa » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:36 PM UTC

xvf22 wrote: post #116

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

I guess the data is built into the price of a Tesla? Would be nice if there was an option to pay not to be so heavily tracked.

The could price the data at $1M, a price no one would pay.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#213

Post by stordoff » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

nemoniac wrote: post #165

craftyguy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you are in the EU. Many Tesla drivers aren't.

The GDPR also holds for European Tesla drivers outside the EU.

I don't believe that's true. For processors outside of the Union, it applies to "data subjects in the Union" or "monitoring [...] within the Union".

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-3-gdpr/

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#214

Post by dsfyu404ed » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

>But Tesla also took time to publish a blog post characterizing Cordaro as someone who did not take care of his Model S.

>"The suspension ball joint experienced very abnormal rust,” Tesla said of his car, adding that Cordaro “lives down such a long dirt road that it required two tow trucks to retrieve the car.” The car, Tesla also added, was “caked in dirt."

I'll be one of the first people to tell you that Pennsylvanians are a bunch of loud mouth complainers who don't really have it as bad as they say when it comes to vehicle rust.

However, the idea that a low volume, relatively new (there are no 20yo Teslas let alone Teslas that have spend those 20yr in salt states) car company, primarily located in California (!!!), that primarily recruits in California (!!!), is going to be able to determine "normal corrosion" looks like is laughable. Even established car companies can't accurately and consistently predict corrosion 10yr out. Tesla doesn't even have a big enough data-set to make that prediction, let alone the expertise.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#215

Post by ams6110 » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:39 PM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #84

pseudometa wrote: post #25

Isn't this true of any car company? BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus aren't going to hand over vehicle data. You can't just ask Google for your Android Auto data.

Those companies aren't in the news blaming drivers for crashes which occur while using their "autopilot" tech. So you may be right, but context matters. Maybe someday it will be them in the hot seat, but today, it's Tesla.

As I recall, when Toyota was dealing with accidents involving electronic throttles and "unintended acceleration" they did publicly claim that the accidents were a case of drivers stepping on the throttle instead of the brake.

(Note, this was separate from the real problem of floor mats interfering with the pedals, for which there was a recall).

The NHTSA apparently agreed.

Because proof that the ETCS-i caused the reported UAs was not found does not mean it could not occur. However, the testing and analysis described in this report did not find that TMC ETCS-i electronics are a likely cause of large throttle openings as described in the VOQs

Acronyms and details in the report:

https://one.nhtsa.gov/About-NHTSA/Press-Releases/ci.NHTSA%E2...

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#216

Post by Someone1234 » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

sxates wrote: post #208

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

This only seems to happen for accidents that turn into national news, speculating that Tesla was at fault (or with drivers actively accusing them of fault). Their response is (understandably I think) to defend themselves when they can show they weren't at fault. I'd assume that if you have an accident and don't make it a media story, they don't publish your driving errors.

So something that is entirely outside of your control may determine if Tesla shames you in front of millions of people and violates your privacy? That's the defense you're arguing?

Plus Tesla never releases the crash data, they release select snippets that make them look good. For example, the famous "six seconds" claim in the barrier incident but absolutely zero data on their automatic emergency braking's actions, what autopilot was doing, what sensors detected, or any of their other systems.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#217

Post by rtkwe » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

sxates wrote: post #208

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

This only seems to happen for accidents that turn into national news, speculating that Tesla was at fault (or with drivers actively accusing them of fault). Their response is (understandably I think) to defend themselves when they can show they weren't at fault. I'd assume that if you have an accident and don't make it a media story, they don't publish your driving errors.

The fact remains that they're 'completely dedicated' to your privacy including from yourself up until putting that data out benefits the company. So they have access to that data only in ways that benefit and exculpate the company while you as the driver and source of that data cannot use the data about yourself to defend yourself without going through the courts!

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#218

Post by Matheus28 » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #136

slededit wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can get the data remotely from a smashed car on the side of the road to slander the driver. But somehow if you want it, a $1000 cable is totally necessary.

Is it really that difficult to use a hacked femtocell and MitM the Tesla's telemetrics? And remember this story: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/03/man-hacks-tesla-firmwar...

Communication with the mothership is done through a VPN. The only way to listen in is to have root access to the cid (that computer in the middle with the large screen).

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#219

Post by Symmetry » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

Maybestring wrote: post #183

gwbas1c wrote: post #48

Accelerator pedal immediately went from 0% to 100%? Really? Even I don't press my brake like that when parking.

They say abruptly. And this is normal in a mistaken accelerator pedal application. You press down on the 'brake', the car speeds up, you panic stomp down on the 'brake' as hard as you can.

Normally, from my understanding of these sorts of accidents, you wouldn't fail to move your foot over if you're only braking gently but you might if you need to slam down the brake. As your reflexes slow down as you age you'll find yourself getting into more situations where you need to slam the brake. And it will more often make sense to apply a hard brake now because you know you won't be able to increase the braking force in time later if it becomes necessary. I don't remember the last time I had to slam the brakes in my own driving but when I'm riding with my father he has to do it pretty regularly.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#220

Post by ubernostrum » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #124

Symmetry wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be fine if the only way to get a Tesla was to deliberately sign over your rights to the data. But nobody reads the EULA and the vast majority of consumers have no idea that this is something they're agreeing to. I'd really like for us as a society to rethink how consumer consent could work in a way that doesn't require everyone to be a lawyer. But given that most of the rules around this have been constructed imp…

What about used car sales? Are you now unable to sell your car, unless the buyer agrees to the TOS?

This is precisely how covenants work on real estate, and is how things like homeowners' associations perpetuate themselves: the original builder, or the first owner to join the HOA, attaches a covenant which will require all future owners to also join the HOA and follow the HOA's policies.

In prior times, such covenants were also used to try to racially segregate property, by forbidding sale to a person of a race the covenant's creator disliked (such covenants are technically still valid, but unenforceable by US courts).

And they're sometimes used for other things, too; I recall there was a house near my college's campus that the college wanted to purchase and use, but the owner had set up a restrictive covenant that would forbid any later purchaser/inheritor from selling it to the college.