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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#391

Post by HelloNurse »

Const-me wrote: post #378
kllrnohj wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't remotely true. OpenGL is only outdated on macOS where Apple hasn't updated it for 8 years. OpenGL 4.6 isn't anything like OpenGL 1.0/2.0 even though you can still _run_ those old OpenGL 1.0/2.0 tutorials. You can even do most of the cool stuff of Vulkan in OpenGL via AZDO techniques (example: https://developer.nvidia.com/opengl-vulkan )

> OpenGL is only outdated on macOS Also on Windows. Apparently, if you want to distribute your software to wide audience, you can only rely on OpenGL 3.0, with minimal set of extensions. Here’s an example: https://github.com/Const-me/GL3Windows#building-and-running All the target systems had latest Windows updates, and they all run Direct3D 11 software just fine (I mostly develop for D3D and I test on them). On some…

No. Both ATI and Nvidia drivers include recent OpenGL versions, so OpenGL support problems are limited to actually not capable hardware.

In the old link you offer as example, Intel HD3000 and HD4000 are bad, with bad drivers that lie about OpenGL versions (hence the need to downgrade the client), and fortunately obsolete. Current Intel integrated graphics have improved. And VMware is a virtual machine, not hardware; it should be expected to be terrible.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#392

Post by HelloNurse »

jhanschoo wrote: post #238
lev99 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is building your own PC really a recent trend? A lot of early pcs were kits people built, and I remember pc gaming in the '90s and '00s was also heavily focused on custom built machines.

Probably the last couple decades saw custom PC building decline in market share as prebuilt solutions became mainstream, but perhaps it's seeing a resurgence now that most consumers have moved from focusing on computers to focusing on smartphones as their personal tech hub.

Now that prebuilt PCs tend to be cheap and limited, anyone who wants something better needs to build the machine from parts.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#393

Post by jmull »

sundvor wrote: post #259
_bxg1 wrote: post #32

Ugggggh. As if graphics support on macOS weren't middling enough already. It's like they're trying to become as irrelevant as possible in that area. I could understand if they were deprecating it in favor of Vulkan. That would be in-line with Apple's history of aggressively pushing forward new standards. But by no means do they have the clout to coerce developers into their own bespoke graphics API that doesn't work…

Apple must truly hate gaming, or suffer from a serious case of Not Invented Here with their Metal stuff. As if any serious gaming studio would target Metal which doesn't run on Windows. In fact, they couldn't get their act together, keep with current versions, and as a result titles like Elite Dangerous were being shut down anyway. Reason: OpenGL stuck on an old version without support of compute shaders. https://for…

You’re not giving history it’s due.

Go back in time six years ago. What were Apple’s choices?

(1) continue to live with the deficiencies of OpenGL. Remember that, over time, it had come to fail at one of its primary purposes which was to provide efficient access to GPU hardware. Further, sticking with OpenGL would be to accept the leadership of a group that had allowed its flagship standard to falter.

(2) They could marshal their resources and create the better API that the Khronos Group wouldn’t/couldn’t.

They really had no choice. Note that Vulkan wasn’t announced until after Metal was released.

The gripes in this are should really be leveled at the Khronos group, which fumbled their stewardship of OpenGL and, with it, the chance to lead open GPU APIs.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#394

Post by ctrl-j »

sgift wrote: post #304
ctrl-j wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about that. Or maybe Adobe just doesn't care. My 2017 Macbook Pro has horseshit graphical bugs in both Illustrator and Photoshop. I'm exclusively doing all my graphics work on my Windows 10 machine now (even though windows and my Wacom tablet do not play nice together.)

> even though windows and my Wacom tablet do not play nice together. They don't? Whats the matter? (mine works great, but I'm not a heavy user so curious if it depends on the model or I just didn't run into it so far)

I've got the Intuos Pro from a couple models back. Windows Ink randomly causes pressure sensitivity to drop out (especially since the creators update.) On Windows 8 I never had trouble with the wireless adapter, now I have to run wired. Button clicks don't always register and sometimes will send the wrong input.

Overall it's rough, there are days where it seems better than others - but I'll randomly lose sensitivity and multiple reboots appears to be the only pseudo-consistent means of getting it back.

That being said - It's still way more usable than Photoshop/Illustrator on my Mac.

I miss 15 years ago when I had CS2 + Intuos Pro 2 and everything just worked.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#395

Post by beached_whale »

SXX wrote: post #142
beached_whale wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue #2 has turned out for the better. Googles store is a dumpster fire of crap, malware, and knockoffs. On iOS there is less crap and less knockoffs and generally no malware. Steam link is weird, but I thought I read somewhere that they would have had to pay Apple 30% of in-app sales. But long story short is that I am paying them to curate the apps.

> Steam link is weird, but I thought I read somewhere that they would have had to pay Apple 30% of in-app sales. Valve tried to explicitly disable purchases through app, but Apple still refused it even if it's would only do streaming.

There is a story there that might be interesting to hear. I wonder if it has to do with it taking away from the incentive to produce ios native games vs streaming/controlling a game on a pc.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#396

Post by Const-me »

HelloNurse wrote: post #391
Const-me wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OpenGL is only outdated on macOS Also on Windows. Apparently, if you want to distribute your software to wide audience, you can only rely on OpenGL 3.0, with minimal set of extensions. Here’s an example: https://github.com/Const-me/GL3Windows#building-and-running All the target systems had latest Windows updates, and they all run Direct3D 11 software just fine (I mostly develop for D3D and I test on them). On some…

No. Both ATI and Nvidia drivers include recent OpenGL versions, so OpenGL support problems are limited to actually not capable hardware. In the old link you offer as example, Intel HD3000 and HD4000 are bad, with bad drivers that lie about OpenGL versions (hence the need to downgrade the client), and fortunately obsolete. Current Intel integrated graphics have improved. And VMware is a virtual machine, not hardware;…

> Intel HD3000 and HD4000 are bad, with bad drivers that lie about OpenGL versions

Technically that’s probably true. However, if you drop support of Intel GPUs, your GL4+ software will no longer run on a huge count of older Windows laptops people are still using. For many kinds of software this is a bad tradeoff. That’s exactly why all modern browsers implement WebGL on top of Direct3D, and overwhelming majority of multi-platform games and 3D apps use D3D when running on Windows.

> VMware is a virtual machine, not hardware; it should be expected to be terrible.

It’s only terrible for OpenGL. The virtual GPU driver uses host GPU to render stuff, and it runs D3D11-based software just fine. I don’t use it for gaming but it’s nice to be able to use a VM to reproduce and fix bugs in my software caused by outdated OS, windows localizations, and other environmental factors.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#397

Post by lev99 »

HelloNurse wrote: post #392
jhanschoo wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the last couple decades saw custom PC building decline in market share as prebuilt solutions became mainstream, but perhaps it's seeing a resurgence now that most consumers have moved from focusing on computers to focusing on smartphones as their personal tech hub.

Now that prebuilt PCs tend to be cheap and limited, anyone who wants something better needs to build the machine from parts.

Prebuilt pcs were cheap in the '90s and '00s as well. Premium brands like AlienWare still exists for gamers.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#398

Post by phkahler »

coldtea wrote: post #353
phkahler wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I played the fuck out of Angry Birds - on Android. How exactly does forcing developers to adopt a platform specific API help anyone? That was a rhetorical question BTW, don't even try to answer it. Apple are being arrogant as fuck with this.

> How exactly does forcing developers to adopt a platform specific API help anyone? Well, platform specific APIs aren't lowest-common-denominator affairs, and get support for native platform capabilities faster (plus can be more optimized).

I understand their benefits. But why refuse to support standards as well? I don't think Apple is short on resources.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#399

Post by seandougall »

jcelerier wrote: post #311
seandougall wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can get away with that on iOS, but they're a lot more conservative with macOS. To expand on your example, I maintain a legacy app that is stuck in 32-bit land because it relies on the QuickTime framework. QuickTime has been deprecated for seven years, and the transition to 64-bit has been in progress for over a decade, and yet my legacy app runs just fine even under the Mojave beta. There are multiple time bomb…

> QuickTime has been deprecated for seven years, It has entirely been removed from the latest (since 10.12 IIRC?) SDKs so now you have to keep older SDKs just to build your app.

True — 10.12 is my recollection as well — but I’ve been bitten so many times by compiling under a new SDK, especially with an older build target, that I do that as a matter of course anyway.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#400

Post by seandougall »

cmsj wrote: post #334
seandougall wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can get away with that on iOS, but they're a lot more conservative with macOS. To expand on your example, I maintain a legacy app that is stuck in 32-bit land because it relies on the QuickTime framework. QuickTime has been deprecated for seven years, and the transition to 64-bit has been in progress for over a decade, and yet my legacy app runs just fine even under the Mojave beta. There are multiple time bomb…

They said in the Platform State of the Union that Mojave will be the last macOS that runs 32bit apps, so QuickTime.framework and your app are running out of time!

Huzzah! Thanks for the heads-up. I’m looking forward to catching up on the whole SOTU.
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