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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#371

Post by glenneroo »

wolfgke wrote: post #355
tlrobinson wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Custom built PCs are a niche. The vast majority of people just want to buy a box that works.

> Custom built PCs are a niche. The vast majority of people just want to buy a box that works. That is why I wrote "(or often rather: let a good friend build one)." :-) Seriously: In my opinion (but others might disagree) an advantage of self-built PCs over one that some company produces is that you know exactly what components are inside (in particular you can buy components in which you trust), which makes you far…

You're forgetting the most important reason to DIY: money. Where manufacturers are happy to charge you 2x the price to double your RAM or put in a non-shitty SSD, DIYing can shave off a few hundred Euro.

Just as an example, over at apple.com, the new iMac comes with 32GB of DDR4 2666MHz ECC RAM. To add 32GB (64GB total) they are charging 960€, or 2,880€ to add 96GB (128GB total).

Looking on amazon or geizhals.eu (price comparison site), 16GB ECC DDR4 2666MHz sticks cost 200-220€ x 2 = ~450€ für 32GB. That means you can save 500€ on just RAM alone.

Same applies to SSD storage. And graphics cards. And CPU. And basically anything you could want to upgrade.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#372

Post by rockdoe »

msbarnett wrote: post #143
amag wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is still an option on Windows, it's not deprecated.

It’s not deprecated because it’s not even there to begin with — Windows 10 doesn’t ship OpenGL by default; GPU vendors provide their own implementations. Which AFAIK they’re free to do on MacOS as well, they just don’t seem to bother since Apple was doing that work for them

Which AFAIK they’re free to do on MacOS as well, they just don’t seem to bother since Apple was doing that work for them

I'm not sure. NVIDIA provides updates for CUDA and an extremely limited amount of updates for their graphics stack (AFAIK none at all for integrated graphics, for example).

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#373

Post by Applejinx »

vonmoltke wrote: post #345
kayoone wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc, which all support Metal already. Hardly anyone writes their own game engines these days, and if they do they probably have the resources to support Metal. Overall still a bummer though.

> To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc What's the "etc"? Are there any other engines in that set?

With a bit of luck, Godot Engine. Sort of a dark horse, but I like it and my very smart corporate-programmer brother likes it. He says it's designed like a programmer would design it: everything's a node. I know I did a game in Unity (which has become overcomplicated) and had a surprisingly easy time jumping into Godot.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#374

Post by rockdoe »

corysama wrote: post #252
fulafel wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-deprecated OpenGL code for a hello world triangle is still an order of magnitude less verbose than Vulkan though.

Vulkan code is extremely front-loaded. HelloTriangle is much longer. A complete application can be significantly shorter.

In my opinion a similar difference exists between CUDA and OpenCL. OpenCL takes more code to get something simple going. But at least it doesn't break if you upgrade your gcc or use a different GPU vendor.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#375

Post by pjmlp »

euos wrote: post #265
_bxg1 wrote: post #32

Ugggggh. As if graphics support on macOS weren't middling enough already. It's like they're trying to become as irrelevant as possible in that area. I could understand if they were deprecating it in favor of Vulkan. That would be in-line with Apple's history of aggressively pushing forward new standards. But by no means do they have the clout to coerce developers into their own bespoke graphics API that doesn't work…

And where is Vulcan standard? Windows games use DX. iOS is Metal. Android Open GL, ES, etc. Gaming consoles have proprietary APIs. I would very much prefer games to use Metal on macOS (Starcraft2 is much smoother on the same hardware)

On Khronos dreams, even on Android which was adopted on version 7, is not worthwhile to display on the developer's dashboard.

https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/

And good luck finding a Vulkan version beyond 1.0, with extensions that work properly across all mobile devices.

http://vulkan.gpuinfo.org/vulkansupport.php#android_devices

You get a spectrum all the way from 1.0.0 up to 1.0.66, with Vulkan 1.1 promised for Android P devices only.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#376

Post by simondanisch »

kayoone wrote: post #263
sundvor wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple must truly hate gaming, or suffer from a serious case of Not Invented Here with their Metal stuff. As if any serious gaming studio would target Metal which doesn't run on Windows. In fact, they couldn't get their act together, keep with current versions, and as a result titles like Elite Dangerous were being shut down anyway. Reason: OpenGL stuck on an old version without support of compute shaders. https://for…

To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc, which all support Metal already. Hardly anyone writes their own game engines these days, and if they do they probably have the resources to support Metal. Overall still a bummer though.

The problem is still with apple forcing them to invest resources, without any reason, but to advance their vendor lock in. And if you're a developper of a small high performance 3d graphics and gpu computing library like me, its just a giant middle finger from apple and I will either need to drop opengl/opencl or apple - there is no way that i can afford to offer both, especially since i'd need to buy apple hardware to test things.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#377

Post by rockdoe »

hellofunk wrote: post #368

Why is anyone surprised by this? Apple has a decades-long history of taking outdated technology and making it obsolete by forcefully removing it (which they haven't actually done yet with OpenGL): Parallel Ports Floppy Drives CD/DVD Drives Older USB, Firewire ports Network ports They were the first to remove all this stuff, and everyone was shocked. Now they are doing this with an API. Both Apple and Microsoft have l…

This would have been a valid argument...if they supported Vulkan instead.

But they do not.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#378

Post by Const-me »

kllrnohj wrote: post #236
marcosdumay wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but OpenGL is so outdated that the people that should use it the most (game and 3D application developers) were avoiding it due to a hardware vs. API incompatibility. Vulcan was created to get that same portability, with an API that fits modern hardware.

That isn't remotely true. OpenGL is only outdated on macOS where Apple hasn't updated it for 8 years. OpenGL 4.6 isn't anything like OpenGL 1.0/2.0 even though you can still _run_ those old OpenGL 1.0/2.0 tutorials. You can even do most of the cool stuff of Vulkan in OpenGL via AZDO techniques (example: https://developer.nvidia.com/opengl-vulkan )

> OpenGL is only outdated on macOS

Also on Windows.

Apparently, if you want to distribute your software to wide audience, you can only rely on OpenGL 3.0, with minimal set of extensions. Here’s an example: https://github.com/Const-me/GL3Windows#building-and-running

All the target systems had latest Windows updates, and they all run Direct3D 11 software just fine (I mostly develop for D3D and I test on them). On some systems it works in 10.1 compatibility mode, MS calls that “feature levels”. Not a big deal in practice, the majority of D3D11 stuff still works OK.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#379

Post by scj »

kbenson wrote: post #279
sundvor wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple must truly hate gaming, or suffer from a serious case of Not Invented Here with their Metal stuff. As if any serious gaming studio would target Metal which doesn't run on Windows. In fact, they couldn't get their act together, keep with current versions, and as a result titles like Elite Dangerous were being shut down anyway. Reason: OpenGL stuck on an old version without support of compute shaders. https://for…

As much as Apple would like to emulate the Microsoft of the 1990's, they're just so bad at it . Embrace. Extend. Then extinguish.

Worse still, by ignoring a ubiquitous tech in favour of their own bespoke solution they are emulating Apple of the 90s!

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#380

Post by pjmlp »

psyc wrote: post #325

As a long-time professional game engine programmer, it is hard for me to see consternation over things like this, and avoid judging it as mainly ignorance. The amount of code in an engine that needs to touch the graphics API is tiny. A handful of methods for device init, filling buffers, uploading shaders, setting state, and saying "draw!" All of the graphics API code can easily fit in one medium-sized source file. A…

Quite true.

People in FOSS friendly circles really don't get the games development culture, IP management or the contracting business related to ports.

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