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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

491–500 of 527 posts

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective. Until I hear that it is, I will assume it is not, since it's much easier to achieve your mission of killing bad guys if you're also willing to kill good guys. You get more rewards for killing more bad guys, not saving more good guys. Unfortunately that's how militaries and governments work.

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective. Not to put too fine of a point on it but even a basic search on the topic would yield a ton of official policy doing exactly that. There is explicit guidance and long history of minimizing civilian casualties as a goal within the DoD, and such guidance is codified in multiple legal documents under the Uniform Code of Mili…

A large set of such references are to be expected, of course. When a civilized people undertake killing on a large scale, you don't want others to think you act without justification. So you write serious administrative documents claiming your government actions to be justified and your military claims to minimize collateral damage.

But are such claims really true? Does the part of the military chain of command that actually does the killing take those claims to heart, as much as pentagon spokesmen do? Do the superiors of lieutenants and privates hold them to that standard, even when the laws of conduct become unenforceable by collateral victims, as in drone strikes?

In several US wars, such claim were not taken to heart. Vietnam became infamous in US history as lacking a sound casus belli, just as the 2003 Iraq War has. In messy wars like these, one of the principal casualties is often the enforcement of the rules of war, especially when it comes to laws of conduct that are still in the course of being written, such as the proper use of drones or AI.

This lack of enforcement becomes especially fraught when novel weaponry and its use is governed not by the military under its code of conduct, but by the CIA (who now runs most drone snipery), which AFAIK lacks an equivalent martial code of conduct.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no significant difference between a drone-strike and a conventional airstrike by a manned aircraft, at lest when it comes to targeting, precision, etc. But there's a significant difference in the sense that drones are the only way these strikes are conducted. Manned strikes would be more risky, since they expose a pilot, and less practical because manned aircraft can't be "parked" over a target for anywhere…

Sounds like your issue is with the current political system not with drones. Direct your anger to the appropriate places.

I'm not angry at drones, any more than someone who opposed the V2 bombing of London was angry at rockets.

I have been against politicians who support this, though every presidential nominee for at least 12 years has supported it. But political opposition isn't limited to the voting booth. If a horrible act can be blocked by means reduction then dissuading people from enabling the means is a way to change politics.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#494
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

Disclaimer: I also work at Google I think that the problem is more specific than working with the military or developing weapons, and it's important to disentangle the more broad concerns with military work versus the concerns about this specific project occurring at Google. I personally would not like to work on developing weapons but it's definitely much harder to defend a position such as "building ships for the U…

I don't see how the desire simply for defense can avoid developing autonomy in micro-drone interceptors: Oh no, a bad guy drone is flying right towards the pope! Deploy the autonomous interception drone to stop it. No way a human pilot can conceivably defend against this type threat. Which means we need autonomy to protect, and that does lead to the dual-use dilemma.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#495
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s making an enormous and baseless jump that any company that supplies the military must also be involved corruption and unethical war mongering. Just because an economic insentive exists, doesn’t mean people will exploit it. That’s just as senseless as saying that I’m probably a drug dealer because there’s an economic insentive for me to be. Aside from the complete lack of logic in this claim, it also doesn’t even…

> Just because an economic insentive exists, doesn’t mean people will exploit it. I think that this statement has been proven wrong countless times throughout history.

History has proven that every company in the world will always exploit every possible opportunity to make a profit now matter how corrupt or illegal it is? I don’t think history has proven that at all, and I don’t think you actually believe that.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#496

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Extending this argument, would you be OK if they helped other countries as well? Or just your country? I am trying to see if you are arguing from a patriotic perspective or saying that there is nothing wrong with military collaboration in general? I don't see why a company should only collaborate preferentially with one country. Either they shouldn't collaborate with any military as a part of some policy, which I don…

> I don't see why a company should only collaborate preferentially with one country.

Because if they do, then they avoid the negative outcomes you describe.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s making an enormous and baseless jump that any company that supplies the military must also be involved corruption and unethical war mongering. Just because an economic insentive exists, doesn’t mean people will exploit it. That’s just as senseless as saying that I’m probably a drug dealer because there’s an economic insentive for me to be. Aside from the complete lack of logic in this claim, it also doesn’t even…

A company has only one feedback point in the long run (people leave or die over that timeframe, so you can only count on the lowest common denominator there) and that is money. If that doesn't tell you something about a company's core motivation, then I'm afraid I can't make clear to you why counting on anything but economic incentives as motivation for a company's actions is naive at best.

You’re argument is that every company _must_ be involved in corruption and law breaking, simply because there is profit to be found in doing so. This isn’t simply naive, it has no basis in reality whatsoever.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason this is a problem is something you stated: Google brands itself as a global company. I’m an American and while I acknowledge the density of intelligent people that work at Google, the fact that they ostensibly have “global interests” makes me concerned that they could do this work safely. Please do not interpret that as some jingoistic platitude. That’s just...reality. While the “company” may be lo…

I can 100% guarantee that no one will be able to work on Maven without getting a TS/SCI clearance. The process of getting one entails a high level of scrutiny.

Yes, I’m sure as well. But the “global” nature of the company still exposes even those who have SCI (or higher) clearance to risk.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective. Not to put too fine of a point on it but even a basic search on the topic would yield a ton of official policy doing exactly that. There is explicit guidance and long history of minimizing civilian casualties as a goal within the DoD, and such guidance is codified in multiple legal documents under the Uniform Code of Mili…

A large set of such references are to be expected, of course. When a civilized people undertake killing on a large scale, you don't want others to think you act without justification. So you write serious administrative documents claiming your government actions to be justified and your military claims to minimize collateral damage. But are such claims really true? Does the part of the military chain of command that…

Does the part of the military chain of command that actually does the killing take those claims to heart, as much as pentagon spokesmen do?

Again, you can research this for yourself and find out that yes, it's deeply embedded into the culture. This is seen the most clear when military members who break the rules and are reprimanded, discharged or jailed. You can move the poles all you like, but the data exists.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#500

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

youre really going to cite mitsubishi and siemens conduct during wwii as uh something you dont see anything wrong about?? you might want to do some homework on that....
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