Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#411

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

Quarrelsome wrote: post #396

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said there may be merit to bombing weddings. Why is it any different to bombing hospitals, nurseries, scholyards etc? Those are all civilian targets. Edit: In the spirit of reconcilliation, I would like to explain that I didn't accuse you of anything, much less advocating genocide (I don't even think that bombing a school is genocide; infanticide, at scale, maybe- but, genocide? I don't see that). I felt you are…

If its a wedding where a large number of key figures will be then its arguable. Somehow I see that as far more rational outcome than a meeting of key figures in a nursery or a schoolyard unless you're going to war against babes or schoolchildren which suggests you have bigger problems. Introducing the school/nursery begs the question though: > If someone surrounds themselves with children 24/7 but commands an army or…

>> Its easy to argue your point when your the scales are even and between completely non-civilian and professional armies but when those lines are blurred your position makes one completely incapable of action.

I don't disagree. The current situation is that we're trying to find a balance between the perceived necessity of warfare and the undeniable horror of the consequences of it to civilian populations. It's absurd to think that we can nicely and cleanly separate war against a nation's army from war aginst that nation's people.

The obvious solution would be to not accept the necessity of warfare anymore. But I guess, we're very far from that.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#412

Post by nebulous1 » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

cobookman wrote: post #78

yongjik wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... after all, they are loyal only to profit and the USA . You know what, most employees of Google or Facebook would vehemently disagree, including American citizens. In fact, say anything like that in Google's internal groups and I'm sure some lawyerfolk will descend down on you, hissing "Would you please stop talking about what you have zero ideas about?" (These days it might even involve HR. After all, saying to…

Source please. I've Not seen anything stating most tech employees are anti Maven. Blind had a poll and it showed the exact opposite, with a strong majority for Maven.

Can you link the poll you mention?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#413

Post by mattnewton » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

3131s wrote: post #152

ipsin wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this queasy feeling that the U.S. is killing people who aren't actually taking up arms against it. If doing so shaves a few percent off the error rate that's saving innocent lives, but it's also becoming an essential part of a process that kills innocent people? I'd prefer standing against the slaughter.

It is fact, not a feeling. How many of the roughly 1 million people dead in the last 15 years of the "War of Terror" ever directly attacked the US or US citizens?

That’s the problem with preemptive strikes against individuals who aren’t part of a nation that declared war against you.. who’s t say they wouldn’t have attacked you? The metrics are inpossible, and the government is free to redefine people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time as probably guilty anyways.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#414

Post by Bartweiss » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #391

fsloth wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If your problem is with killing people, it should be with the people who ordered the killing and not the specific weapon that was used to carry out the killing." Drone strikes, as they are used, are a more evil way of taking out identified targets of other nationalities. I find the concept of a nation state summarily assassinating people a bit troubling, but drone strikes make it even worse by making it imprecise an…

> Drone strikes, as they are used, are a more evil way of taking out identified targets of other nationalities. I find the concept of a nation state summarily assassinating people a bit troubling, but drone strikes make it even worse by making it imprecise and cheap. There's no significant difference between a drone-strike and a conventional airstrike by a manned aircraft, at lest when it comes to targeting, precisio…

> There's no significant difference between a drone-strike and a conventional airstrike by a manned aircraft, at lest when it comes to targeting, precision, etc.

But there's a significant difference in the sense that drones are the only way these strikes are conducted. Manned strikes would be more risky, since they expose a pilot, and less practical because manned aircraft can't be "parked" over a target for anywhere near as long as a drone. And whatever the legality of the situation, the political reality is that manned strikes look substantially more like an act of war.

So the difference is that many of these strikes wouldn't happen without drones. It's not about how the bomb is delivered, it's about whether we're assassinating people without a declaration of war in the first place.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#415

Post by fsloth » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #387

fsloth wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they could make sure they are killing only the guy they wanted, and act on that using pinpoint precision? Uh, actually, now that you mentioned it, that would be even more scary. That would be totally consequence free assassination device. At least the civilian casualties put some lid on the tendency to wantonly fly around in glorified RC planes murdering people. The way I see it, if you are intending to assassinat…

Every military technology from bows and arrows to GPS is doing exactly what you are objecting to by lowering the danger to the attacker and increasing the success of a potential attack. Drones are an incremental step in that process. It just seems strange to me to draw the specific line at drones when we are seemingly fine with other advancements that are almost identical in effect like stealth technology. Once again…

I accept a global superpower sometimes assassinates people, and perhaps sometimes for good reasons.

My main opposition is to the factory like efficiency in which these extra-judicial executions are carried out by the drone pilots in a cost effective manner.

It gives me associations with other human organizations in the past which have carried out their mission with cruel detachment and efficiency.

I can't really put my finger on it, but it's just something I feel Stalin or Himmler or Robespierre would have totally agreed with.

Automated elimination of the enemies of the state? Wonderfull!

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#416

Post by josefresco » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

randcraw wrote: post #403

ChuckMcM wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are dying perhaps your definitions change. I hold the controversial (and often dismissed) opinion that Google is dying. I assert they are dying in part because they built a company around search advertising before they knew how to build a company, their initial success gave them the confidence and agency to create structural impediments to their ability to do anything but search advertising. And the search a…

When you say 'dying' are you referring to civilians or soldiers? No civilian supports killing by drone in their home town. Drone targeting is often indiscriminate and always unaccountable. Because drone kills are anonymous to anyone but the killer, it allows soldiers to act invisibly by remote control. And now we want to give that responsibility to robots? That'd be a truly terrible precedent for future warfare. Woul…

Drone targeting is often indiscriminate and always unaccountable.

This is just wrong and not helpful to the discussion. Have you read (or even seen thanks to YT) anything about how "drone targeting" by US forces is actually accomplished besides media outrage when a bomb misses? Mistakes are made, but targeting is far, far from indiscriminate. And being "unaccountable" is not exclusive to drone warfare.

"Would you be OK with your local police enforcing the law at 1000 feet? Using a rocket launcher? That's what we're asking the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to do."

If my local criminal network detonated a bomb at my local coffee shop, killing 50, 100, 200 of my friends and family members, and then proceeded to do so every week, yes - I'd encourage rocket launchers from 1000 feet, 10,000 feet or 10 feet if that was the most effective way to stop them.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#417

Post by nasredin » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

DrJaws wrote: post #160

mc32 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I thin…

False dilemma fallacy

The least fallacious fallacy next to the Slippery Slope fallacy.

If it's not US, Russia or China on top, then it is somebody else.

What had the Romans ever done for us?!

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#418

Post by randcraw » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

jonnybgood wrote: post #15

kibwen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's whether one views the intersection of profit and war as intrinsically evil, which for most people is a resounding yes. Humans are already good enough at killing and causing misery for each other without adding additional economic incentives into the mix.

But what if the US military wants to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage as much as possible and wants technology developed to do so?

Unfortunately I'm not aware that minimization of civilian casualties is a US military objective.

Until I hear that it is, I will assume it is not, since it's much easier to achieve your mission of killing bad guys if you're also willing to kill good guys. You get more rewards for killing more bad guys, not saving more good guys.

Unfortunately that's how militaries and governments work.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#419

Post by Bartweiss » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #226

cheschire wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action el…

> "[B]ringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. Well, that definitely seems to be the purpose of the US military.

It was even the stated goal of neoconservatives launching US military actions, as 'nation building' and 'spreading democracy'. Honestly, "don't say bringing peace" feels alarmingly close to "obviously we did this, but don't admit to it".

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

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Post by sfifs » Fri, Jun 01, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

cheschire wrote: post #209

paganel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action el…

It's interesting that this line of peace even seems to be believed which shows the triumph of propaganda. Millitary in all ages has always existed to either further or protect the economic interests of the people in power.