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China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

reuters.com

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Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#171

Post by jacobush »

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #159
jacobush wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complicated, how? Obesity forming is part of declining living conditions.

Obesity is a sign of improved living conditions that is also a sign of declining living conditions. The former conditions are largely out of the individual's control while the latter conditions are largely in his control. That is, being able to be obese is dictated by the economic vitality of one's country whereas being obese is dictated by one's actions.

On a macro level, I don't buy it. If the economic reality is that you live in a food desert and you are bombarded by sugar propaganda every living day of your life ... sure, there is some kind of selection process of the most fit for that environment going on. Not sure it's a good outcome though, the optimal strategy seems to be get as many kids as you can before dying of obesity in your forties.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#172

Post by OscarCunningham »

nostrademons wrote: post #64
kawaiikouhai wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick google search would show this is untrue. Opioid overdoses kill 40,000 a year. 2.7 million Americans die per year. Even if you were talking about a decrease in healthy lifespan, Opioids do not generally cause a person to transition from healthy to unhealthy (they are prescribed to treat a preexisting condition). Sources: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

That's not necessarily a disproof - if opioids are killing people who are disproportionately young, then they could have an outsize effect on life expectancy. Say life expectancy is 79 years. If a new cause of death occurs that affects 10% of the population and kills, on average, at age 78, then life expectancy goes down to 78.9. If a new cause of death occurs that affects 10% of the population and kills at age 29, t…

For a cause of death affecting 40000/2700000 it could only reduce life expectancy from 79 to 77.8, even if all the victims were age 0.

EDIT: I suppose it could be lowered a bit more if all those who died were those who would otherwise have lived longest.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#173

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jdietrich wrote: post #166
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Beijing for 10 years (until 2016). Even the most committed wumao wouldn’t it’s pretty bad. Western media (if you mean by propaganda) if anything makes the problem sound not as bad as it really is, but how could any westerner even begin to comprehend an AQI reading over 300 let alone 500 or 1000. Actually, the only people who say the air isn’t bad are the ones who have never been before.

The air quality in China is objectively terrible, but I do think that the government are serious about fixing it. China is now the biggest market for electric vehicles and photovoltaic panels by a considerable margin. The issue is being talked about quite openly on Chinese social media, which suggests that the Party have a great deal of confidence.

While I’ll admit the current thrust is promising, a lot of it is extremely fragile. The electric vehicle push is completely incentive drive of course; e.g. why Beijing has so many Tesla’s these days despite the 2X markup has to do with the separate EV allocation in its plate lottery. Is that economically sustainable? Who knows. Solar is even more precarious as the country still lacks to the grid to move it from West to East where it is needed. LanZhou has cleaned up nicely, but it isn’t helping anything in Hebei much.

The current push to cleanup air pollution has hit some walls in being too harsh. China lacks rule of law at the local level, factory owners commonly skirt regulations, so what does happen is very heavy handed (close all factories that do X vs. just the ones that are out of compliance). They actually had to let up on the campaign after CNY this year because too much production was taken offline.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#174

Post by wallace_f »

microcolonel wrote: post #128
wallace_f wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but just personally I would say life expectancy / healthcare access are primary measures of 'is life getting better or worse' for people.

It depends on whether the factors leading to shorter life are deliberate (or just willful ) or accidental.

It's hard to flesh out self determination from ennvironmental factors. Not to sound overwhelmingly 'r/iam14andthisisdeep, but consider: 1) Nomadic hunter gatherers who have shortened their lifespans due to their lifestyle choices, or lack of choice/information in determining their lifestyle; and 2) App developers who may also have shortened their lifespan due to lifestyle choices, or even also lack of choice/information (ie sedentary lifestyle to afford rent/food/taxes/legal aid, sugar consumption due to inaccurate information from leading scientists regarding health risks).

I just think we can't really know which one we'd prefer had we not experienced both.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#175

Post by chillingeffect »

dv_dt wrote: post #30
adventured wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Although, it also wouldn't be terribly surprising for China to pass the US on this metric. When you look at the obesity numbers: US 36%, New Zealand 31%, Canada 29%, Australia 29%, UK 28%, Israel 26%, Ireland 25% Thailand 10%, Indonesia 7%, China 6%, Philippines 6%, South Korea, 5%, Vietnam 2% Vietnam's life expectancy will overtake the US in the next 10-15 years as well most likely (they're about three year…

It's not just obesity that drives poor US life expectancy performance. Mexico's life expectancy is projected to rise meet the US life expectancy by 2030, and they're a nation with a fairly high obesity percentage. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-life-expectancy-is-low-an... We have to acknowledge that the lack of Universal Healthcare in the US is a big driver of our poor life expectancy showing.

I'm in favor of universal healthcare, but the state of our health is a holistic problem.

It includes our diet, restaurant culture, stress, play culture, misinformation, corporate influence, architecture, work culture, as well as our healthcare administration.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#177

Post by cocoggu »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138
jewelry wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should really think if your impression of the apocalyptic situation is actual thing or just propaganda. Smoking though is a probability thing just as the obesity is.

I lived in Beijing for 10 years (until 2016). Even the most committed wumao wouldn’t it’s pretty bad. Western media (if you mean by propaganda) if anything makes the problem sound not as bad as it really is, but how could any westerner even begin to comprehend an AQI reading over 300 let alone 500 or 1000. Actually, the only people who say the air isn’t bad are the ones who have never been before.

So bad you left in 2016, I'm in Beijing since 2012 and I can tell 2017 has been the year of change for air pollution. I really expect the next months/years to improve as well because the AQI still occasionally reach 300-350 and it's already far too high.

I guess we will have to wait another 5-7 years to reach US and Europe current air quality though.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#178

Post by oblio »

abhiminator wrote: post #149
ludston wrote: post #18

Congratulations to China and the Chinese people who have managed to measurably improve their livelihoods over the last few decades.

They deserve every bit of praise considering the fact that China was known as the 'land of famine' for majority of its history [0] -- having suffered their last major famine in the 1960s [1], that's just 60 years ago -- a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. The turnaround is truly impressive for a country the size of China. Makes one wonder about the power of free markets in lifting huge segments of the po…

> Makes one wonder about the power of free markets in lifting huge segments of the population from immense poverty.

One would argue that it was a market economy with heavy state interventions. I'm not sure I'd call that a "free market".

But then again, I think a "free market" is a purely theoretical concept that only serves as a rough outline in real life, it has no practical application.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#179

Post by eitally »

oblio wrote: post #178
abhiminator wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They deserve every bit of praise considering the fact that China was known as the 'land of famine' for majority of its history [0] -- having suffered their last major famine in the 1960s [1], that's just 60 years ago -- a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things. The turnaround is truly impressive for a country the size of China. Makes one wonder about the power of free markets in lifting huge segments of the po…

> Makes one wonder about the power of free markets in lifting huge segments of the population from immense poverty. One would argue that it was a market economy with heavy state interventions. I'm not sure I'd call that a "free market". But then again, I think a "free market" is a purely theoretical concept that only serves as a rough outline in real life, it has no practical application.

I think that was the point. It has absolutely not been a free market (compared-ish to the US economy) and overall it's worked wonders at the macro level, whether you're looking at QoL, infrastructure, business conditions, education, or most other measures I can think of besides privacy and human rights.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#180

Post by Nasrudith »

joe_the_user wrote: post #80
ludston wrote: post #18

Congratulations to China and the Chinese people who have managed to measurably improve their livelihoods over the last few decades.

As a developing nation, China should indeed be experiencing an increased lifespan. But under normal circumstances, China's life expectancy increases should be getting closer and close to the curve of developed nations without actually touching - because all countries should be making progress. So the obvious story here is the actual decrease in US life expectancy, a situation broadly reflecting declining living condi…

Shouldn't there still be diminshing returns to some extent in that model? Say for instance improving drinking water quality. Compared to dysentery tainted water a chlorination system would yield dramatic improvement. Then more sediment filterung, robust filtering to remove metal and plastic pollution, etc. But once you reach the point of "sterile mineral water quality from every tap" you will have been beyond measurable lifespan improvement even factoring in lifestyle changes resulting from high quality abundant water. Granted a country has /many/ areas to work on for public health but it may eventually hold no lifespan difference just from sheer saturation of benefits obtained through lifetimes of work.

And there is a shameful backslide in the US for life expectancy for various reasons.

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