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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#121

Post by tialaramex »

amelius wrote: post #113
seanhunter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the definition of a "lottery" under the uk gambling act "(2)An arrangement is a simple lottery if— (a)persons are required to pay in order to participate in the arrangement, (b)in the course of the arrangement one or more prizes are allocated to one or more members of a class, and (c)the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance." There is also a complex lottery where the process begins w…

> and (c)the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance." This part sounds leaky to me. Game producers might assign prizes which are based e.g. 99% on chance and 1% on skill.

The law calls that a complex lottery. But it's still a lottery, and the UK law on lotteries is very simple: No for-profit lotteries.

You can (and at least two big companies do) make money from operating a lottery on behalf of a charity, but you can't run a lottery where the profits themselves go somewhere other than a "good cause" such as a charity. And the UK has tighter regulation than the US of charities so it's harder to have a "charity" that basically just puts money into your own pockets.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#122

Post by tialaramex »

acou_nPlusOne_t wrote: post #18
evolighting wrote: post #7

Gambling is gambling, loot box is loot box, I think we should not spending time on arguing the definition, but instead limit loot box as what we do with gambling. New stuff come with new rules, may sound more resealable.

I often wish, there was a diffrent sort of gambling- taking the customers money and refunding it - in secrecy to the familys whos reward-circuitry-hacked members bleed them dry. That- and only that, is the acceptable gambling that i could accept existing.

The British government owns lots of banks, one of them, the National Savings and Investment Bank has a product that is almost this (but not secret), named 'Premium Bonds'.

You buy bonds, and like a lottery ticket they might randomly win a prize in a draw. But because it's a bank not a lottery the bonds themselves never go away if you don't win, it's basically a savings account except instead of boring percentage interest you randomly win prizes.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#123

Post by pfisch »

called_it wrote: post #106
pfisch wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me clear it up for you. The entertainment you derive from a scratch lottery ticket is not the "prize" element of gambling. The prize is the money you win from the scratch off. Gambling devices pay out a prize that is worth a real redeemable cash value and can be sold on an open market. What prize does a loot box give you that is not purely for entertainment value? They do not give you a prize that is redeemable f…

Hmmm. > the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes

What is that websters?

That is not the legal definition of gambling, and all court decisions on the subject clearly indicate that gambling requires real cash value to the prizes and not just entertainment that has no actual value.

Loot boxes do not have the 3rd element of gambling, which is the recognized legal definition in virtually every jurisdiction.

https://www.truthfinder.com/glossary/gambling-definition/

"In order for the activity to be considered gambling, it must contain three separate elements. These are consideration, chance, and a prize. If one or more of these elements is not present, then gambling is not taking place."

"The final element of gambling is the prize. If the player has the chance to win something of value, then gambling is taking place. Again, the amount or value of the prize is inconsequential. As long as it has some value, it is considered gambling."

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#124

Post by saintPirelli »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #81
kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

> We now stand completely naked and exposed as the irrational, animal, mamalian ape that we are in front of the extreme exponential technological whirlwind that has made everything so complex, fast changing and exploitative that we have no option but to completely drop out or ride the tiger. Love the imagery in your writing... I think we do have an option for now (turn off your phone when you get home/go on vacation…

I can't help but feel like this will divide society. Like fast food and eating healthy. Everybody knows eating healthy is better for you, but a lot just can't be bothered. Consuming media on the most addictive feeds will be the same. Only this time we won't have an obesity epidemic, but an epidemic of retardation and uselessness.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#125

Post by salvar »

oblio wrote: post #99
dtech wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is very much the nature of a CGC though. Hearthstone seems less exploitative than Magic the Gathering, Pokemon TCG or Yu-Gi-Oh because you can trade in unwanted card and those have been around for a long time.

Hearthstone is digital. Biiiiiiiig difference. Hearthstone should be compared with other computer games, not with MTG & co.

MTGO then?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#126

Post by Nullabillity »

Drakim wrote: post #94
Nullabillity wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.. single-use dungeon tickets are gambling too?

Game Publisher: Oh no, We wouldn't dream of having gambling in our game! That's why we don't have single-use dungeon tickets (which is just gambling with one extra step between). You can do our dungeons as many times as you want, they aren't single use. Of course doing a dungeon run costs five purple crystals, which costs five bucks. After an epic story focused (cut-scenes that you can skip) showdown with a boss (tha…

That's still a ticket required to enter the dungeon.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#127

Post by m12k »

SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #76
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would easily argue Blizzard has the most generous/least exploitative loot box models. Cosmetic only with a fairly regular/healthy rate of freebies, not to mention the currency you get that lets you acquire the ones you actually want without relentlessly "rolling". Heroes of the Storm steps it up even further with a reroll mechanic you can use for disappointing boxes. Compared to the others in the industry, Blizzard…

HotS and Overwatch really aren't exploitative sure, but Hearthstone is incredibly exploitative. Unless you are so good you can go "infinite" in arena (always make your gold entry fee back and then some, on average), you have to buy packs for every expansion that comes out. Or you have to play with lower-tier cards, which some people do successfully, but to get the most out of the game or be "competitive" they will ne…

Yeah, I think of Hearthstone as a game with a $150 per year subscription and evaluate if I want to keep playing it based on that - which currently I do, but I can definitely see how many people wouldn't (and if I hadn't been playing since the beginning, it would cost more to stay competitive now)

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#128

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

tialaramex wrote: post #115
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

>> The loot box mechanism is straightforward: you buy a box for a fixed price, and you receive a random reward. Some rewards are commonplace and low value; others are rare and high value. So far, so gambling: these essential features are found in roulette, slot machines, betting on horses, raffles, and lotteries. Er. And Magic: the Gathering booster packs. Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had…

The psych people I've talked to explain it as a rule of thumb "If it's not a problem, it's not a problem". Say you feel you need to wear a hat made of marshmallow. Is that a problem? Well, is it? For example if you lost your job because of the hat, that's a problem. If you spend so much on marshmallow hats that you can't afford your rent, that's a problem. If you killed somebody's dog because it tried to eat your hat…

I think that's what people (used to?) call "ego-dystonic" situations (?). I like the zen of the particular wording you give.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#129

Post by Spellchamp »

oblio wrote: post #100
belorn wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time this topic was discussed I saw a very similar question so I had a theory: What if physical card packs is such a small market that government have simply not noticed enough to care to regulate it. I then went and look up the numbers and checked. If I recall right: Magic the Gathering and Pokemon sat around $500k in realy global market sales. Sport cards a few millions. Game with lootboxes is estimated around…

Yeah, but the question is: is gambling ramping up at the same rate as games with lootboxes? Also, gambling is usually restricted, either by location or by age. Are games with lootboxes 18+?

I think the big reason that Magic never ramped up so much is because of the fact that it's a physical pack. You can only buy however much is in stock (at most) and even when you order a booster box or fat pack online, it still has a delay before it arrives. With the online model it's really easy to just keep pulling the lever over and over again and getting an instant response.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#130

Post by ocdtrekkie »

oblio wrote: post #99
dtech wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is very much the nature of a CGC though. Hearthstone seems less exploitative than Magic the Gathering, Pokemon TCG or Yu-Gi-Oh because you can trade in unwanted card and those have been around for a long time.

Hearthstone is digital. Biiiiiiiig difference. Hearthstone should be compared with other computer games, not with MTG & co.

I've played digital card games that sold digital card packs for real money like ten plus years ago. Decipher did the Star Trek CCG online the same way.

I always thought a much more modern scenario would've been if they put like a code or something on physical packs so you could buy them once and have the same cards in both digital and physical form.

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