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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#91

Post by Thiez »

zeta0134 wrote: post #8
warcher wrote: post #2

Hey uh, I don’t do a lot of mobile gaming, but what’s a loot box and why should I care if it’s gambling or not?

A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds k…

Doesn't feel manipulative to me, just annoying. I wish there was a big 'open all boxes and skip animations' button that I could click every few months. Right now my boxes tend to accumulate because I just can't be bothered to watch the stupid animation, even when I'm waiting for competitive matchmaking, which can literally take minutes.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#92

Post by belorn »

Cub3 wrote: post #66

I still haven't heard anyone take on physical vs digital card games as part of this. Typically cards are sold in random 'packs' (see Hearthstone, Gwent and Valves 'up and coming' card game) which should fall under this definition. But blind card packs (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon) physically are not banned by any government, nor, have I ever heard them talked about in the same umbrella as gambling?

Last time this topic was discussed I saw a very similar question so I had a theory: What if physical card packs is such a small market that government have simply not noticed enough to care to regulate it. I then went and look up the numbers and checked. If I recall right:

Magic the Gathering and Pokemon sat around $500k in realy global market sales. Sport cards a few millions. Game with lootboxes is estimated around a half a billion. Regular gambling estimated around $400 billions.

This make in my view a rather simple answer why Magic the Gathering might not be a big concern for government but why regular gambling really is and why loot boxes currently sit in the middle. To simplify: 1x, 1000x, 1000000x.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#93

Post by Sharlin »

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #75

> "Loot boxes work like gambling, and they're designed like gambling. They're designed to provoke compulsive reward-seeking behavior." Just because A has some properties of B doesn't mean that A is B. I think both gambling and loot-boxes could be categorized as subsets of the set of things that are "compulsive reward-seeking behavior".

Semantics schemantics. Most things that fall into the category of "provoking compulsive reward-seeking behavior" (that is, are addictive) are—and should be—regulated. Gambling, alcohol, drugs...

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#94

Post by Drakim »

Nullabillity wrote: post #62
FrozenVoid wrote: post #47

The lootbox mechanic can be easily disguised without making it seem like gambling: 1.Buy lots in-game currency with cash or grind X hours for it. 2.Buy "A ticket to dungeon Y" with in-game currency. 3.The dungeon has a boss that is essentially a easy to kill walking lootbox. Tada, all gambling regulations bypassed. If you want to play loot-centric games this is your choice. All MMOs that revolve around items and loot…

So.. single-use dungeon tickets are gambling too?

Game Publisher:

Oh no, We wouldn't dream of having gambling in our game! That's why we don't have single-use dungeon tickets (which is just gambling with one extra step between).

You can do our dungeons as many times as you want, they aren't single use. Of course doing a dungeon run costs five purple crystals, which costs five bucks. After an epic story focused (cut-scenes that you can skip) showdown with a boss (that you can take down in one attack) you get random loot from a loot table, just like in good old games like Diablo (functionally the same as a lootbox).

Of course, the fact that it works out to 5 bucks for a random item is not gambling, since we now have two steps instead of just one.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#95

Post by bsder »

pavlov wrote: post #79
bsder wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess buying physical cards is not so addictive that anyone would pay attention. Ummmm, they call Magic the Gathering "cardboard crack" for a reason ...

Perhaps, but it's a very niche audience. What's the revenue of the company that makes MtG? Some mobile game companies do billions per year. That kind of sales attract regulatory attention.

Hasbro gets roughly a billion a year in the gaming category and explicitly calls out Monopoly and Magic the Gathering as the vast majority of that.

https://investor.hasbro.com/news-releases/news-release-detai...

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#96

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

>> The loot box mechanism is straightforward: you buy a box for a fixed price, and you receive a random reward. Some rewards are commonplace and low value; others are rare and high value. So far, so gambling: these essential features are found in roulette, slot machines, betting on horses, raffles, and lotteries.

Er. And Magic: the Gathering booster packs.

Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had hoped that despite my M:tG habit [1], I was not really-really a gambler.

____________

[1] And let's not discuss my DnD etc RPG habit. I flip cards and roll dice way too much for someone who sincerely thinks she's not into games of chance.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#97

Post by viraptor »

dtech wrote: post #89
SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HotS and Overwatch really aren't exploitative sure, but Hearthstone is incredibly exploitative. Unless you are so good you can go "infinite" in arena (always make your gold entry fee back and then some, on average), you have to buy packs for every expansion that comes out. Or you have to play with lower-tier cards, which some people do successfully, but to get the most out of the game or be "competitive" they will ne…

That is very much the nature of a CGC though. Hearthstone seems less exploitative than Magic the Gathering, Pokemon TCG or Yu-Gi-Oh because you can trade in unwanted card and those have been around for a long time.

Also in MTG there's a lot of people who will happily play unrestricted games for fun. Unless you're after playing at tournaments you can ignore editions and new releases. (Or just pick what's interesting to you in them)

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#98

Post by yAnonymous »

jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

With digital goods, the distributor can stack the odds against you to make you spend more money. They know what you want and they can make sure you don't get it.

And then you possibly don't realize how much you've spent, because unlike real cards, digital ones don't pile up.

It's definitely different.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#99

Post by oblio »

dtech wrote: post #89
SmallDeadGuy wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HotS and Overwatch really aren't exploitative sure, but Hearthstone is incredibly exploitative. Unless you are so good you can go "infinite" in arena (always make your gold entry fee back and then some, on average), you have to buy packs for every expansion that comes out. Or you have to play with lower-tier cards, which some people do successfully, but to get the most out of the game or be "competitive" they will ne…

That is very much the nature of a CGC though. Hearthstone seems less exploitative than Magic the Gathering, Pokemon TCG or Yu-Gi-Oh because you can trade in unwanted card and those have been around for a long time.

Hearthstone is digital. Biiiiiiiig difference.

Hearthstone should be compared with other computer games, not with MTG & co.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#100

Post by oblio »

belorn wrote: post #92
Cub3 wrote: post #66

I still haven't heard anyone take on physical vs digital card games as part of this. Typically cards are sold in random 'packs' (see Hearthstone, Gwent and Valves 'up and coming' card game) which should fall under this definition. But blind card packs (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon) physically are not banned by any government, nor, have I ever heard them talked about in the same umbrella as gambling?

Last time this topic was discussed I saw a very similar question so I had a theory: What if physical card packs is such a small market that government have simply not noticed enough to care to regulate it. I then went and look up the numbers and checked. If I recall right: Magic the Gathering and Pokemon sat around $500k in realy global market sales. Sport cards a few millions. Game with lootboxes is estimated around…

Yeah, but the question is: is gambling ramping up at the same rate as games with lootboxes?

Also, gambling is usually restricted, either by location or by age. Are games with lootboxes 18+?

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