Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 171 posts

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#111

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

joekrill wrote: post #104
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

>> The loot box mechanism is straightforward: you buy a box for a fixed price, and you receive a random reward. Some rewards are commonplace and low value; others are rare and high value. So far, so gambling: these essential features are found in roulette, slot machines, betting on horses, raffles, and lotteries. Er. And Magic: the Gathering booster packs. Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had…

> Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had hoped that despite my M:tG habit [1], I was not really-really a gambler. Just because someone gambles doesn't automatically mean they have a "gambling problem". But I certainly don't see why M:tG booster packs wouldn't be considered gambling, as well. > And let's not discuss my DnD etc RPG habit. I flip cards and roll dice way too much for someone who sin…

For M:tG cards, yes, I think so. I have to pay something to get the cards in the first place, and I guess you could see the cost spread over each use of a card (uses which, btw, are limited in time- there's only a limited number of times I'll get to include a rare card in a deck, draw it and play with it, until I get bored or it rotates out of the most popular formats I'm engaged with).

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#112

Post by PhasmaFelis »

monkeywork wrote: post #46
jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

thank you. I've been saying it is nothing new... baseball/hockey/MtG/Pokemon cards are essentially the exact same. as long as you aren't hiding game changing content in loot boxes (ie. all skins or something) I think they are perfectly fine.

That's an odd distinction to make, since MtG/Pokemon cards are practically nothing but "game-changing content."

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#113

Post by amelius »

seanhunter wrote: post #29
evolighting wrote: post #7

Gambling is gambling, loot box is loot box, I think we should not spending time on arguing the definition, but instead limit loot box as what we do with gambling. New stuff come with new rules, may sound more resealable.

Here's the definition of a "lottery" under the uk gambling act "(2)An arrangement is a simple lottery if— (a)persons are required to pay in order to participate in the arrangement, (b)in the course of the arrangement one or more prizes are allocated to one or more members of a class, and (c)the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance." There is also a complex lottery where the process begins w…

> and (c)the prizes are allocated by a process which relies wholly on chance."

This part sounds leaky to me. Game producers might assign prizes which are based e.g. 99% on chance and 1% on skill.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#114

Post by pas »

Drakim wrote: post #94
Nullabillity wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.. single-use dungeon tickets are gambling too?

Game Publisher: Oh no, We wouldn't dream of having gambling in our game! That's why we don't have single-use dungeon tickets (which is just gambling with one extra step between). You can do our dungeons as many times as you want, they aren't single use. Of course doing a dungeon run costs five purple crystals, which costs five bucks. After an epic story focused (cut-scenes that you can skip) showdown with a boss (tha…

In both WoW and Diablo2 doing instas required nothing but the game itself (for WoW it was the monthly subscription, for Diablo2 it was a one time purchase).

Of course, if there's a freemium model, it's very hard to argue that it's not gambling, if people buy in-game-something to speed up grinding.

But in that regard simply wasting time for a low-probability-drop item is also gambling.

The problem is that in the direct microtransaction lootbox model there's just an insane feedback loop, to get that nice knife/gun/armor/breastplate.

It should be treated like addiction - which it is. People like to play hazard games, so gambling will be with us forever, and some people will not be able to handle the accompanying mental draw to that dopaminergic feedback loop.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#115

Post by tialaramex »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

>> The loot box mechanism is straightforward: you buy a box for a fixed price, and you receive a random reward. Some rewards are commonplace and low value; others are rare and high value. So far, so gambling: these essential features are found in roulette, slot machines, betting on horses, raffles, and lotteries. Er. And Magic: the Gathering booster packs. Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had…

The psych people I've talked to explain it as a rule of thumb "If it's not a problem, it's not a problem".

Say you feel you need to wear a hat made of marshmallow. Is that a problem? Well, is it? For example if you lost your job because of the hat, that's a problem. If you spend so much on marshmallow hats that you can't afford your rent, that's a problem. If you killed somebody's dog because it tried to eat your hat, that's a problem, and so on.

If you spend money on MTG and enjoy it even if it's $5000 per week that could be fine, psychologically at least, if it didn't cause you or others to suffer. But if you find you're ruining your life, or other people's to buy cards, even if it's just $50 of cards per month then that's a gambling problem.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#116

Post by GuB-42 »

Sharlin wrote: post #93
em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #75

> "Loot boxes work like gambling, and they're designed like gambling. They're designed to provoke compulsive reward-seeking behavior." Just because A has some properties of B doesn't mean that A is B. I think both gambling and loot-boxes could be categorized as subsets of the set of things that are "compulsive reward-seeking behavior".

Semantics schemantics. Most things that fall into the category of "provoking compulsive reward-seeking behavior" (that is, are addictive) are—and should be—regulated. Gambling, alcohol, drugs...

Everything is addictive in the right circumstances. There are people who became addicted to sudoku puzzles. Things like sports, which are usually considered beneficial can be addictive too. Reward seeking is a normal human thing, and it is essential for the survival of the specie.

The general idea, I think is that addictive things shouldn't be regulated unless it is a significant threat to society. Gambling is, because it is known to put people into bankruptcy. Obviously, drugs, which alcohol and tobacco are, also pose serious problems. But lootboxes? I've never heard about families being destroyed by lootboxes. Yeah, people can spend more than intended, but for it to be a problem warranting heavy regulation, it has to be more than just scraping disposable income.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#117

Post by majewsky »

jimrandomh wrote: post #67
Cub3 wrote: post #66

I still haven't heard anyone take on physical vs digital card games as part of this. Typically cards are sold in random 'packs' (see Hearthstone, Gwent and Valves 'up and coming' card game) which should fall under this definition. But blind card packs (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon) physically are not banned by any government, nor, have I ever heard them talked about in the same umbrella as gambling?

Randomized physical card packs can be gambling, but they also have non-gambling uses; in MtG, there are ways of playing (drafts) where the randomized packs are logistically important to how the game is played, and those ways of playing are legitimately fun.

Roulette is also "legitimately fun" to many people.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#118

Post by aianus »

oldcynic wrote: post #51
zerostar07 wrote: post #27

Most games contain calculated random rewards or else the game would be boring and predictable. However to call this gambling it's quite a stretch as you can't cash out. Whoever decided to make those "boxes" look like slot machines spinning brought it upon themselves.

Even if you can't trade the items (and you often can), they have a perceived value, and often a hard cash market value. A value that is frequently over-promoted by the game to encourage purchase of more premium currency by the naive to buy more boxes. I can't distinguish a loot box from a scratch card -- except a scratch card must reveal odds. I'm old-school in terms of paying for games: £xx for a complete game, £x f…

> I can't distinguish a loot box from a scratch card -- except a scratch card must reveal odds.

A lot of problem gamblers get in a bad way because they think that the only way to recoup their losses is by continuing to play until they win.

If you can't sell loot for cash, then it can't lead to this same kind of problem gambling because it's literally impossible to recoup your losses instead of merely unlikely. Therefore lootboxes should be regulated differently from actual gambling if at all.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#119

Post by called_it »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #96

>> The loot box mechanism is straightforward: you buy a box for a fixed price, and you receive a random reward. Some rewards are commonplace and low value; others are rare and high value. So far, so gambling: these essential features are found in roulette, slot machines, betting on horses, raffles, and lotteries. Er. And Magic: the Gathering booster packs. Does that mean I have a gambling problem then? Because I had…

You're into games of chance. Whether it's a gambling problem I can't say, but yes, you're gambling sometimes. True fact.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#120

Post by saintPirelli »

ramblerman wrote: post #83
kossTKR wrote: post #65

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry. When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field. This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast a…

Or as with most new things it gets a bit out of hand and it takes a generation or two to find a balance. But don't let me deny you the pleasure of your apocalyptic rantings :)

That's right, but it doesn't mean that you have to be a consenting victim in these developments.
Post reply on HN