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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#61

Post by saintPirelli »

staticelf wrote: post #56

> Regulations that tightly restrict or absolutely prohibit loot boxes will definitely hurt the gaming industry and will hurt, perhaps even fatally, games I love. Maybe actually charge for the game that companies used to? I hate free 2 play games because I am a whale and I know it. When I get hooked I can easily pay hundres of dollars of digital shit. Much more than I would ever have if I had just purchased the game.…

I agree with this. I wish more consumers would pressure game companies into practices like CD Project RED displays. Those fellas keep some integrity in the industry.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#62

Post by Nullabillity »

FrozenVoid wrote: post #47

The lootbox mechanic can be easily disguised without making it seem like gambling: 1.Buy lots in-game currency with cash or grind X hours for it. 2.Buy "A ticket to dungeon Y" with in-game currency. 3.The dungeon has a boss that is essentially a easy to kill walking lootbox. Tada, all gambling regulations bypassed. If you want to play loot-centric games this is your choice. All MMOs that revolve around items and loot…

So.. single-use dungeon tickets are gambling too?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#63

Post by Jedd »

> There will definitely be economic harm, and games companies will have to figure something out to fill the monetary gap.

Regulation painted as 'economic harm' is hard to defend in an industry that's been around a long time without these kinds of practices being so widespread, and so user-hostile, that regulators are actually starting to care.

Games companies long ago figured out how to fill the monetary gap -- sell a game for money. The transaction is straightforward, transparent, and aligned with the expectations most people have for most goods and services exchanges.

What that kind of traditional transaction does not lend itself to is changing the contractual arrangement after the exchange (to the purchaser's disadvantage), or to orchestrate a situation where the vendor can continually identify, manipulate, and abuse the weaknesses of the purchaser.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#64

Post by michaelt »

itake wrote: post #37
Deestan wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical CCGs have always been on the nice side of a gray area, digital CCGs are worse, and most loot boxes are much worse. Some important differences (experience drawn from Magic: the Gathering CCG, Rocket League, Team Fortress 2, Hearthstone, Pokémon CCG, Hustle Castle, Merge Dragons, Call of Duty WW2, and a bunch more I don't remember off the top of my head; I play a lot of games): Games with loot boxes will const…

I don't see how this is related to whether or not CCGs or loot boxes are gambling. - "heavily advertised" is not necessarily a feature of gambling - Being able to easily resell reminds me of poker chips. - The longevity of the prize is not a requirement for gambling. - CCG could be instant gratification too. Time delay is not a feature of gambling.

There's not a bright line between CCGs, scratchcards and loot boxes.

CCGs have merely been overlooked by regulators because they've traditionally been a niche interest and none of the makers were dumb enough to decorate the card packs with one-armed bandits.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#65

Post by kossTKR »

Seems to me like we are in a race to to the bottom in all parts of the software and entertainment industry.

When behavioural economics and data mining became all encompassing we lost all that was positive and good in this field.

This modeling of the human psyche has existed in PR and the commercial industry for a century, but the incredible multiplier that lies in the constant connection and the advancement of fast and agressive interfaces has now made us all like rats pushing levers in a Skinner box.

Hordes of psychologists, data analysts and digital designers has become like a mercenary army that whores itself out to the global-internet-consciousness that itself has become like a cancer that eats up peoples last moments of clarity.

We now stand completely naked and exposed as the irrational, animal, mamalian ape that we are in front of the extreme exponential technological whirlwind that has made everything so complex, fast changing and exploitative that we have no option but to completely drop out or ride the tiger.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#66

Post by Cub3 »

I still haven't heard anyone take on physical vs digital card games as part of this. Typically cards are sold in random 'packs' (see Hearthstone, Gwent and Valves 'up and coming' card game) which should fall under this definition. But blind card packs (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon) physically are not banned by any government, nor, have I ever heard them talked about in the same umbrella as gambling?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#67

Post by jimrandomh »

Cub3 wrote: post #66

I still haven't heard anyone take on physical vs digital card games as part of this. Typically cards are sold in random 'packs' (see Hearthstone, Gwent and Valves 'up and coming' card game) which should fall under this definition. But blind card packs (Magic the Gathering, Pokemon) physically are not banned by any government, nor, have I ever heard them talked about in the same umbrella as gambling?

Randomized physical card packs can be gambling, but they also have non-gambling uses; in MtG, there are ways of playing (drafts) where the randomized packs are logistically important to how the game is played, and those ways of playing are legitimately fun.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#68

Post by Cub3 »

monkeywork wrote: post #46
jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

thank you. I've been saying it is nothing new... baseball/hockey/MtG/Pokemon cards are essentially the exact same. as long as you aren't hiding game changing content in loot boxes (ie. all skins or something) I think they are perfectly fine.

Does saying it's nothing new make it ok though? Pokemon cards realistically target children, isn't this teaching them gambling mechanics?

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#69

Post by [deleted] »

zeta0134 wrote: post #8
warcher wrote: post #2

Hey uh, I don’t do a lot of mobile gaming, but what’s a loot box and why should I care if it’s gambling or not?

A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds k…

[deleted]

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#70

Post by bsder »

jmiserez wrote: post #40

The same arguments could apply to physical card packs (e.g. MtG cards) sold at tabletop gaming stores. Yet nobody seems to mind there?

Mostly because you can directly buy the cards you want in MtG on the secondary market.

Consequently, this limits the "whale effect"--even the most expensive decks of cards in "Standard" tops out at about $1200 ($20 times 60 cards), and generally MUCH less than that gets you championship level decks.

If the ONLY way to get an MtG card that was required to compete was to open $200 boxes over and over and over, I suspect that people WOULD start complaining.

Most of the "skinner box" games explicitly prevent you from being able to buy specific cards precisely to keep you on the hamster wheel.

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