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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#31

Post by simion314 »

zerostar07 wrote: post #27

Most games contain calculated random rewards or else the game would be boring and predictable. However to call this gambling it's quite a stretch as you can't cash out. Whoever decided to make those "boxes" look like slot machines spinning brought it upon themselves.

This is not random loot you find in the world, you pay real money to buy a box and hope you win some cool helmet or gun, you can't buy that item directly and have to buy many boxes until you win it or in some games as mentioned in the article this items can be traded on some gray markets.

There are games that just sell you the item, no randomness involved.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#32

Post by simion314 »

Karunamon wrote: post #15
ruytlm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

IMO those are also gambling, and I think some cards were made more rare, so to fully complete a set you would need to buy a large number of cards.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#33

Post by Deestan »

Karunamon wrote: post #15
ruytlm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

Physical CCGs have always been on the nice side of a gray area, digital CCGs are worse, and most loot boxes are much worse. Some important differences (experience drawn from Magic: the Gathering CCG, Rocket League, Team Fortress 2, Hearthstone, Pokémon CCG, Hustle Castle, Merge Dragons, Call of Duty WW2, and a bunch more I don't remember off the top of my head; I play a lot of games):

Games with loot boxes will constantly push them: Throw a loot box in your face while you play or at the end of the match, urging you to pay to open them. What's inside? Maybe something cool? Don't you want to find out? They will also typically show that you have "(3) Unopened Boxes" in your account when you are in the menus. With a CCG, I can browse my collection, play games with friends, or even tournaments, without having to turn down constant sales pitches.

Games with loot boxes often remind you, while you play, that this and that player in your game or your friend X just opened a loot box now and got something cool.

Anything you want in a CCG can be traded or bought fairly from other players. Few loot box implementations allow this.

Any duplicates you get in a CCG can be re-sold, or given away. Few loot box implementations allow this.

Any cards you get from a CCG have a physical presence, so you can store them in a box in the basement and dig them out again years later to either play or sell. Most loot box games will be dead in 5 years.

Opening a loot box is instant gratification. One click and fireworks you have spent the money and it's opening. CCGs require either mail order or physically going to a store. The time delay between feeling the urge and getting the crackle kaboom whoosh (loot boxes opening is very showy) of opening the thing is days or hours versus split seconds.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#34

Post by daveFNbuck »

pfisch wrote: post #25
__david__ wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering ca…

This has nothing to do with whether it is gambling or not.

It's pretty obvious that both CCGs and loot boxes are forms of gambling. The question is what effects they're having and how they need to be regulated. Loot boxes have a lot more of the features that make gambling a problem, and children are less equipped to handle it. It's reasonable to regulate the benign thing differently from the harmful thing.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#35

Post by simion314 »

fraudsyndrome wrote: post #17
pfisch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie tha…

> You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling. The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've se…

Add on top that the good movies are rare and tons of garbage movies are in the list, the probabilities are hidden and there are no laws to make it fair so they can use who knows what algorithm to determine when you win.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#36

Post by dharmab »

ng12 wrote: post #21
zeta0134 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A loot box is specifically an item that can be purchased in-game that offers a random reward, typically from a loot table and with set odds known only to the game maker. They come in many forms; one of the most obvious is found in Overwatch right now, typically awarded to the player after they level up in game. Overwatch's loot box animation is very pretty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdB17umeKB0 If this sounds k…

I think Overwatch is a bad example because you can't turn the loot into real money. Valve's games are a better example because you can sell the loot directly through Steam -- in some cases for hundreds of dollars.

Overwatch is also a bad (good) example because the developers have a policy where only cosmetic items are available through the loot boxes, while all gameplay features are free for everyone.

Many other loot box games offer items that increase player power or change gameplay in loot boxes. For example, the prerelease version of Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) had a backlash because of items such as "Deal 30% more damage with ship blasters." Other games may have items such as "Deal 20% more damage, but reduce health by 30%" which open up additional strategic options.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#37

Post by itake »

Deestan wrote: post #33
Karunamon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

Physical CCGs have always been on the nice side of a gray area, digital CCGs are worse, and most loot boxes are much worse. Some important differences (experience drawn from Magic: the Gathering CCG, Rocket League, Team Fortress 2, Hearthstone, Pokémon CCG, Hustle Castle, Merge Dragons, Call of Duty WW2, and a bunch more I don't remember off the top of my head; I play a lot of games): Games with loot boxes will const…

I don't see how this is related to whether or not CCGs or loot boxes are gambling.

- "heavily advertised" is not necessarily a feature of gambling - Being able to easily resell reminds me of poker chips. - The longevity of the prize is not a requirement for gambling. - CCG could be instant gratification too. Time delay is not a feature of gambling.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#38

Post by zeta0134 »

dharmab wrote: post #36
ng12 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Overwatch is a bad example because you can't turn the loot into real money. Valve's games are a better example because you can sell the loot directly through Steam -- in some cases for hundreds of dollars.

Overwatch is also a bad (good) example because the developers have a policy where only cosmetic items are available through the loot boxes, while all gameplay features are free for everyone. Many other loot box games offer items that increase player power or change gameplay in loot boxes. For example, the prerelease version of Star Wars Battlefront 2 (2017) had a backlash because of items such as "Deal 30% more damag…

Right, Overwatch is a relatively tame example where it starts to feel potentially manipulative. I forgot about the Battlefront scandal, that's a bit more obviously bad. Again here, the presence of random boosts isn't inherently a bad thing, but making them purchasable is already questionable ("pay to win") and putting them in real-money loot boxes is certainly sketchy ("pay to win but only sometimes")
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