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Loot boxes are obviously gambling

arstechnica.com

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Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#11

Post by lathiat »

I much prefer how Epic Games have done this with Fortnite. And by all accounts their method is raking in a LOT of cash.

All cosmetic items only, but you purchase the exact item you want directly. The items are a little more expensive than you might expect (I think on average $4-10 each) and it includes skins, different "axes" to break objects, different dances and different "gliders" that you fly into the game on.

It's quite fun, but also totally unnecessary and you only spend money on exactly what you want - no random chance.

On top of the fact that it's a free to play game in the first place, and you can also get quite a wide range of skins, axes and dances (10s of them) by playing to complete the battle pass which is only about $10 or so per season. Plus there are a few freebies even if you pay nothing, and some you can get from linking to Twitch Prime, etc.

I think this is winning partly because it is fun (the skins are quite comedic) but also just because you know what you're getting. By comparison I spent about $10 on keys for PUBG and stopped because I just got useless crap that isn't really exciting - they're just basic clothing items. Even the rarer items aren't as exciting which doesn't help but the chance of getting one is quite low.

The thing Epic/Fortnite have done to make them sell more (compared to the random chance) is that there is <10 items for sale per day for 24 hours, after 24 hours the set changes and you may not be able to buy that item again (though in practice many returns a few days or weeks later, you can't be certain). So instead of random chance gambling they're capitalising on missing out / time limited offers. Plus there's a constant influx of new items so instead of wasting time gambling for that ultra rare item - instead you can keep up with whats newer and cooler.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#12

Post by badminton1 »

Loot boxes work by having a list of items with weighted probabilities adding up to 1, and what you buy is getting one or more of those items at random.

The way the weighted probabilities list is constructed changes from implementation to implementation.

The prevalent one so far is "box gacha", the spiritual successor to "complete gacha". The latter is now banned in Japan and the rest are somehow regulated.

The motivations are many. First, it distributes large payments over smaller payments making people lose control over their spending. Then, it complicates people's perception of how expensive an item is.

In a sense, lottery games are the same in spirit. For example, what's the probability of getting an arbitrary unique combination of 6 numbers out of 49 (lottery)? Very, very low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery_mathematics

In mobile, they're usually coupled with "events" that have a leaderboard. Events are actually auctions were people "play" (bid) for a better place in the leaderboard. The rewards are usually not worth it, because through successive updates they're made worthless (e.g.: stats inflation).

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#13

Post by gkya »

Maybe nit-picky, but this is one place (the title here I'm talking about) a properly choosen dash would've saved me a couple seconds or so. When I was reading this, I thought first to myself, what is a crap-loot box, only to understand later that the endash there stood for a semicolon. But endash is for word pairs (i.e. black--white, on--of); here, an emdash would be more appropriate.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#14

Post by sundvor »

lathiat wrote: post #11

I much prefer how Epic Games have done this with Fortnite. And by all accounts their method is raking in a LOT of cash. All cosmetic items only, but you purchase the exact item you want directly. The items are a little more expensive than you might expect (I think on average $4-10 each) and it includes skins, different "axes" to break objects, different dances and different "gliders" that you fly into the game on. It…

Fwiw, PUBG loot boxes are not game play impacting; they are cosmetic only. If you don't want that "chance", you could just buy the specific item you'd like on the Steam store from other players. You may even sell unopened boxes (which require a key) there.

Sauce: https://www.finder.com.au/playerunknowns-battlegrounds-will-...

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#15

Post by Karunamon »

ruytlm wrote: post #3
warcher wrote: post #2

Hey uh, I don’t do a lot of mobile gaming, but what’s a loot box and why should I care if it’s gambling or not?

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell.

This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#16

Post by pentae »

evolighting wrote: post #7

Gambling is gambling, loot box is loot box, I think we should not spending time on arguing the definition, but instead limit loot box as what we do with gambling. New stuff come with new rules, may sound more resealable.

I agree - Gambling is rolling the dice to make back more money than you put in. Loot box is rolling the dice to get digital items you want with no expectation to profit. There is a difference.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#17

Post by fraudsyndrome »

pfisch wrote: post #9
ruytlm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

> Loot boxes are using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner, should be considered gambling, and should be regulated. Gambling should be considered gambling. If paying for variable and unpredictable levels of entertainment is gambling, then you have broadened the definition so wide that it is now meaningless. You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie tha…

> You have now created a definition where buying a ticket to a movie that you may or may not enjoy is a form of gambling.

The appropriate comparison would be buying a ticket to sit down and watch a movie, you don't get to choose the movie though, you have a chance to see the movie you want but there are maybe 9 other movies that you don't want to watch. Maybe the movie you want to watch is super popular and you've seen the other 9 movies several times already.

Probably the most basic comparison minus an analogy for all the addictive flashing lights and all that associated with gambling (incl. loot boxes)

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#18

Post by acou_nPlusOne_t »

evolighting wrote: post #7

Gambling is gambling, loot box is loot box, I think we should not spending time on arguing the definition, but instead limit loot box as what we do with gambling. New stuff come with new rules, may sound more resealable.

I often wish, there was a diffrent sort of gambling- taking the customers money and refunding it - in secrecy to the familys whos reward-circuitry-hacked members bleed them dry.

That- and only that, is the acceptable gambling that i could accept existing.

Re: Loot boxes are obviously gambling

#19

Post by __david__ »

Karunamon wrote: post #15
ruytlm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loot boxes are in-game containers, that contain a randomly generated set of reward items, of varying value. They are also present in far more than just mobile games. They use addictive techniques similar to gambling/casinos to encourage players to purchase more boxes, for a chance at a better reward, sometimes irresponsibly. Using addictive techniques to encourage people to spend in an irresponsible manner can destro…

How are loot boxes significantly different to CCGs of the kind children have been playing and buying/having their parents buy boosters for, for years? Or sports cards? The concept is identical as far as I can tell. This sudden push for regulation throws up every single one of the “think of the children” red flags for bad legislation in my mind.

For one, loot boxes are instant gratification. Cards and arcade machine rewards required going somewhere and physically buying something. A loot boxes is more like sitting in front of a slot machine and thinking, "oh just one more roll, I was so close this time!". Loot boxes also tend to really push you towards expensive options. 10 boxes for $9.99, 25 for $19.99, 125 for $99.99 (best value!!). Magic The Gathering cards are not cheap either but they also don't try to push you into buying a whole booster box as an impulse purchase.
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