Live data from Hacker News

82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

aarp.org

211–220 of 222 posts

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#211
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect adults learn languages a lot faster than kids, when we spend the same amount of time being exposed & practicing. All the polyglots say you have to be willing to mess up a lot and work to shed your fear of feeling stupid. In fact, try to seek it out because that's the primary way you get feedback & learn.

> I suspect adults learn languages a lot faster than kids, when we spend the same amount of time being exposed & practicing. In linguistics, it's pretty well accepted that kids learn languages faster than adults for neurological reasons, with considerable research support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period

Oh I'm sure that critical periods are legit, and I don't doubt that infants and very young kids are learning at a faster rate than adults.

There's just a lot more to learn during first language acquisition than during second language acquisition. It's possible for a child to learn faster than an adult in general, and for it to still take longer to learn a language to basic proficiency, because there's a lot more to learn the first time.

The article you linked even acknowledges that and confirms my premise from above: "Certainly, older learners of a second language rarely achieve the native-like fluency that younger learners display, despite often progressing faster than children in the initial stages."

The research support on second language acquisition seems rather mixed here to me. There's certainly some evidence that kids eventually learn more, but this article presents some evidence against, and the evidence here on time to proficiency vs amount of effort isn't exactly what I'd call considerable. Most of the discussion is on whether second language learners achieve perfection, not on how long or how much effort it takes to become a basic speaker.

Very little discussion on the learning environment difference between kids and adults. Kids get full immersion and years of constant feedback. Adults usually get a few classes or books, a few hours of practice a week, and are usually speaking bilingual while learning, etc. I'd like to see studies comparing apples to apples.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#212
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching beginners? Sure, most little kids are immature and don't understand the big picture concepts of general strategy that adults already learned before they started studying chess. And adult many likely already had some chess experience. But Progressing through to expert or world-class? History verifies the conventional wisdom that ages ~12-30 show the greatest gains. And when you look over to things like langua…

To compare apples to apples you need to look at a given sample that have engaged in the same amount of effort and compare it to another group that has engaged in the same amount of effort. For instance the media representation of the chess prodigy completely misses out that our 'prodigy' has been studying chess beyond full time for 6+ years. How does this compare to adults who study chess as a beyond full time job fo…

The Polgar experiment had at least one major bias -- they were the Polgars' natural born children, not "average" people. Also, Polgar's own hypothesis was that it required to begin study by age 6. Has anyone tried taking a 30-yr-old adult, and funding a 20year intensive chess curriculum for them?

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#213

I just moved to Japan, and it's fascinating that connotations (including my previous) with Japan are "High tech, futuristic, efficient" when in reality it is, "slow moving, traditional, and (frequently) inefficient." I can comment more as to why / how. This woman is not only fighting cultural norms of the _world_, but also Japan. Software engineering, in general, lags so far behind the rest of the world, save robotic…

Having Alan Turing as a role model helped me immensely with internalized homophobia.

When I was younger I honestly thought there weren't many intelligent gay man, and that it was somehow a proof that I was never going to be really good. That was until I discovered Alan Turing was gay, and actively researched about intelligent gay people.

Role models that are like you are so important. One day a friend asked why I got excited when I discovered some guy I admired was gay, and then I realized that he doesn't understand because he has lots of people like him in any area. I know it sounds kind of tribalist in a way, but when society puts you down because you are in a certain group, it's really hard to avoid thinking you are "limited" because of who you are. After seeing lots of people like me, it's less important to me to have these role models since now I know I'm no less of a person because of who I am.

Point is, I don't think most people understand the impact of having role models that are like you, and that's why they don't "get it" when people talk about it.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'd rather have more X" != "I want less Y". This is not a zero sum game.

... why does X need role model X? Can't an X have role model Y? Why wait for there to be role model anything. Those who want to come in, come in!

Some X don't. I didn't. Some X do.

Realise that you're talking about human beings, not machines. Human beings are raised from birth in human society and do not make decisions like "what kind of things do I want to be interested in?" in a perfectly logical and informed manner.

When you come across popular figures in any area, if they look like you the immediate reaction is "wow, so I could do that too?". If none of them look like you, then the reaction is not that. You might end up doing that thing anyway - no corellation is 100% - but the idea that children have role models that they can relate to is not some hard hitting hot take.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#215

I just moved to Japan, and it's fascinating that connotations (including my previous) with Japan are "High tech, futuristic, efficient" when in reality it is, "slow moving, traditional, and (frequently) inefficient." I can comment more as to why / how. This woman is not only fighting cultural norms of the _world_, but also Japan. Software engineering, in general, lags so far behind the rest of the world, save robotic…

Having Alan Turing as a role model helped me immensely with internalized homophobia. When I was younger I honestly thought there weren't many intelligent gay man, and that it was somehow a proof that I was never going to be really good. That was until I discovered Alan Turing was gay, and actively researched about intelligent gay people. Role models that are like you are so important. One day a friend asked why I got…

> When I was younger I honestly thought there weren't many intelligent gay man, and that it was somehow a proof that I was never going to be really good. That was until I discovered Alan Turing was gay, and actively researched about intelligent gay people.

Indeed. Young people believing in themselves and feeling that the field will accept them is incredibly important. It reminds me of this quote from an article [1]:

> ...any healthy child—if taught early and intensively—can be brought up to be exceptionally successful in any field.

Children should be allowed to enjoy their childhood, but I think there is some ground to be covered in exposing more demographics to computer science early.

[1] - https://daily.jstor.org/chess-grandmastery-nature-gender-gen...

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... why does X need role model X? Can't an X have role model Y? Why wait for there to be role model anything. Those who want to come in, come in!

Some X don't. I didn't. Some X do. Realise that you're talking about human beings, not machines. Human beings are raised from birth in human society and do not make decisions like "what kind of things do I want to be interested in?" in a perfectly logical and informed manner. When you come across popular figures in any area, if they look like you the immediate reaction is "wow, so I could do that too?". If none of th…

Who are these people that need a role model? How do you know they even exist? It really sounds like you've just cooked up a theory with no supporting evidence.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some X don't. I didn't. Some X do. Realise that you're talking about human beings, not machines. Human beings are raised from birth in human society and do not make decisions like "what kind of things do I want to be interested in?" in a perfectly logical and informed manner. When you come across popular figures in any area, if they look like you the immediate reaction is "wow, so I could do that too?". If none of th…

Who are these people that need a role model? How do you know they even exist? It really sounds like you've just cooked up a theory with no supporting evidence.

I know because, staggeringly, there has been actual research done and I talk to human beings who this affects. Like, literally five seconds on Google Scholar could have answered that question.

Do you have counter-studies to cite, or is just a case of academic consensus not agreeing with you and so being ignored? I'm actually astonished by your responses here. You're writing with an air of superiority and authority while asking basic questions like "Who are these people?" and "How do you know they exist?" which I had assumed were fundamental bases of any legitimate discussion on the topic.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these people that need a role model? How do you know they even exist? It really sounds like you've just cooked up a theory with no supporting evidence.

I know because, staggeringly, there has been actual research done and I talk to human beings who this affects. Like, literally five seconds on Google Scholar could have answered that question. Do you have counter-studies to cite, or is just a case of academic consensus not agreeing with you and so being ignored? I'm actually astonished by your responses here. You're writing with an air of superiority and authority wh…

No, it is not a fundamental truth. I haven't seen any evidence. It sounds like you could show me, but you haven't.

My original point was nothing to do with whether such people exist or not, by the way, I'm just asking that question now because you seem to be referring to some research that I'm not aware of.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#219
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, did she retire before the dementia or after? It's by no means scientific, but among all of the old people I know, the strongest predictor of dementia would be retiring. I haven't been able to find any studies on the relationship between stopping working and the onset of dementia, although it seems like working or keeping busy might somehow help stave it off.

Could pre-dementia cause people to be ineffective / uncomfortable at work, causing them to retire?

That's entirely possible. Maybe the old people who keep working keep working because they're not gradually becoming demented.

Re: 82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know because, staggeringly, there has been actual research done and I talk to human beings who this affects. Like, literally five seconds on Google Scholar could have answered that question. Do you have counter-studies to cite, or is just a case of academic consensus not agreeing with you and so being ignored? I'm actually astonished by your responses here. You're writing with an air of superiority and authority wh…

No, it is not a fundamental truth. I haven't seen any evidence. It sounds like you could show me, but you haven't. My original point was nothing to do with whether such people exist or not, by the way, I'm just asking that question now because you seem to be referring to some research that I'm not aware of.

>Like, literally five seconds on Google Scholar could have answered that question.

You're probably going to consider this flippant, but: Having the same arguments over and over again with people who haven't done any research is too boring for me to be willing to do it again. I have limited time and it isn't my job to google for you. If you were saying "I disagree with the research" or "I have problems with the research" then that's interesting enough to be engaging, but "I am unaware of the research" means we'd just be having the same conversation I've had a dozen times before. No thank you.

Post reply on HN