Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today • Hacker News Board

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#141

Post by repolfx » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

mns wrote: post #101

sparkling wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.

I thought we are on hackernews here, and not some bullshit propaganda spreading site. Can you provide a documented example of devaluing your currency? Can you provide the number of illegal refugees that came to welfare states (can you name those welfare states?), regulating the form of cucumbers? Who are you, Nigel Farage? https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/straight-cucumbers/

Are you aware that in recent years the ECB has engaged in one of the two largest money printing runs in human history? The ECB's balance sheet as a share of GDP is still increasing. Only Japan's central bank has done more.

And are you aware that when you create money, the value of that currency drops to reflect that? If it didn't any country could become infinitely wealthy by just printing money endlessly. Obviously printing money doesn't increase the amount of stuff, and printing enough creates inflation that pushes down currency values.

The fact that you took this trivial statement and described it as propaganda is very worrying. It seems to me that people have lost the ability to evaluate the EU objectively.

As for illegal "refugees" (many of them come from countries that aren't at war), in 2017 204,219 people crossed an EU border illegally compared to 511,074 in 2016 and 1.8 million in 2015.

And straight cucumbers - the EU does in fact regulate the straightness of cucumbers. The page you link to says bendy cucumbers aren't banned, they just fall into a different grade. But the OP didn't claim they were banned, he claimed these laws were 'silly' and a waste of time - a subjective evaluation but not propaganda.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#142

Post by gpvos » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #99

valesco wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a uniquely American point of view on a European law though.

Businesses that make money off advertising are found all over the world, which is a bigger place than just America and the EU.

You can have advertising without user tracking.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#143

Post by jonathanstrange » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #94

flukus wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that was a reference to the US election interference, not the EU.

It's both. Verhofstadt is a full-blown European federalist (people who want Europe to be united under a single government and single flag). The fortunes of that dream have not been good lately, and he's looking for people to blame that aren't people like himself. I find it pathetic. Verhofstadt and people like him are one of the things that turned me off the EU and turned me into a Brexit voter. They routinely descri…

Well, I'm also a full-blown federalist, although I understand very well why people don't like the idea. I'm still hoping to be able to hold a genuine European passport in my hand that states "European" as nationality and "German" as mother tongue. Here is the main reason why I favour a genuine union with a partially joint military, a strengthened power for the European Parliament, and less power for appointed commissioners in the future:

The EU is in my opinion a great success, way greater than what most people realize. Previous generations, who still remember WW2 or its effect from their childhood, recognize what kind of monumental achievement the EU was - which is based on unanimous votes by member nations with varying governments from all political sides!

Unfortunately, younger generations have lost sight of this, some of them erroneously believe that wars could not start again in Europe without the EU. That's very short-sighted, historically, Europe has been torn by wars almost all the time.

Although the EU is certainly not a warrant for peace, it makes a peaceful future overall much more likely in the long run. Take the cordial relations between Germany and France as an example, without the EU these would not look nearly as good as they do now.

Besides that, there are also economic reasons for the EU, of course, but I just wanted to mention this perspective which is all too often forgotten today.

So what about different cultures? Does the EU "destroy" local culture? About that I have to unfortunately point out the sad truth that nationalists generally tend to lack culture. Few outliers aside, the people who actually advance culture have practically always been international cosmopolitans and humanists. And there is a reason why we all don't speak Latin any longer. So I don't buy the "culture" argument from nationalists, it tends to be very hypocritical.

Finally, as for the priorities you mention, sadly there is a case for technocracy to make here. The impacts of terrorism and immigration are minuscule and almost neglectible in comparison to the impact of, say, advances in technology, and the public's fear tends to be badly aligned with reality.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#144

Post by askmike » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

mikejb wrote: post #136

plopilop wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By large-but-immaterial, do you mean the money escaped via tax fraud and illegal tax cuts?

'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal. Countries try to offer companies a system to provide ridiculously low tax rates for larger regions, because if they get 1% of the revenue of the entire region it's more beneficial to them than getting 20% of their local revenue (numbers are fict…

> 'fraud' and 'illegal' might be problematic words here. The tax evasion schemes used by large corporations are often considered exploits of loopholes - i.e. technically legal.

In your example on Apple this is not clear at all: there are two legal systems at play (the Irish one and the EU one). Apple is only playing by the rules of the Irish one. The problem comes from the EU saying that the Irish laws are not within the EU framework and thus not allowed.

Apple is very much doing not legal things from a perspective of EU law, hence the fine.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#145

Post by pmden » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #93

sparkling wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.

>>Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook Wait, what? EU is doing better than ever and it looks like after Brexit we will enjoy greater integration, and hopefully a full financial and political union in the future. If this is what a "fall" looks like to you, then I don't really know what to say to you - but from the rest of your sentence it seems like you don't like EU as an institution, so I…

I'm sure Italy and Hungary are excited about 'greater integration' too - they've certainly expressed that desire in their recent elections. I'd say 'fall' is the wrong word, but the European Union is not in a particularly healthy state right now. One large member leaving, one founding member making potentially illegal demands after electing populists, another three being sued for refusing to follow rules on migrants. It's not the first time, and it probably wont be the last, but it's not a good place to be.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#146

Post by pmlnr » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #117

AstralStorm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than being politics as usual (which are a joke because politicians are not equipped for dealing with complex issues other than public relations)... If EU died, who do you think would take over and why do you think they'd be any better? US has problems of its own with "digital sovereignty" as it allowed China to take over most of manufacturing. Russia is saddled with social debts and social warfare. EU nation st…

If EU died, who do you think would take over and why do you think they'd be any better? Easy. Nation states would. And they'd do better, at least some of the time, because they're more accountable. Just compare the Congress vs EUP performance. The USA is arguably too large and too centralised. But Congress, despite having many ancient politicians who clearly have never used the internet let alone Facebook, still mana…

> And they'd do better

Not a chance. Not in Europe. Go and read about our history when there was no EU.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#147

Post by phicoh » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

adam-_- wrote: post #77

phicoh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just my impression: if this was Google, then yes. It is very hard to replace Google at this point in time. Facebook is on its way out. Due to the network effect, Facebook will stay relevant for a long time. But if Facebook would leave the EU then it wouldn't take long for other social networks to take its place. Facebook is relevant because everybody is on Facebook. Not because it is such a great service. Personally,…

That network effect can't be underestimated. In the olden days of a new social network every other week the percentage of my friends and family on each social network (including Myspace, the most dominant) was relatively low, so the pain of switching was low. Now the percentage on Facebook is extremely high and I don't even know what an alternative would be. Lots of friends and family are on Whatsapp, quite a lot of…

Due to the network effect, you may end up with lots of people using Facebook, but actually disliking the service.

What you can see happening is that people treat Facebook more as a news feed then as a platform to communicate with friends.

Once personal communication moves away from Facebook, other communication is likely to move as well. It may take as while though. When that happens, Facebook will be more like a twitter feed.

I'm really curious what will happen to WhatsApp. Will it stay the way it currently is. Or will it become some sort of Facebook?

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#148

Post by mirgj » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:10 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #112

Roritharr wrote: post #86

What struck me as quite interesting was Guy Verhofstadts sideremarks. >"You have to ask yourself how you will be remembered," he said. "As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, who have enriched our world and our societies, or on the other hand, the genius that created a digital monster that is destroying our democracies and societies." I imagine you have to talk like this to a…

Presumably Zuckerberg has learned the lesson of Bill Gates: Europe periodically discovers a reason to fine American tech companies large-but-relatively-immaterial amounts of money. Then you eventually graduate to being Old Money, and Europe reminisces fondly about you.

despite for US at least in Europe they're still able to tell when there's a monopoly. Zuckerberg is no even able to tell one of Facebook's competitor to the congress yet he claims to have a lot of competition

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#149

Post by mpfundstein » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #89

Roritharr wrote: post #86

What struck me as quite interesting was Guy Verhofstadts sideremarks. >"You have to ask yourself how you will be remembered," he said. "As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, who have enriched our world and our societies, or on the other hand, the genius that created a digital monster that is destroying our democracies and societies." I imagine you have to talk like this to a…

"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.

I upvoted you because I think you are addressing the root problem.

I'd suggest that in future discussions, you back your claims with sources. Then people would not simply downvote you for expressing a 'populist' opinion.

Re: Zuckerberg didn’t make any friends in Europe today

#150

Post by pimmen » Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:13 AM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #89

Roritharr wrote: post #86

What struck me as quite interesting was Guy Verhofstadts sideremarks. >"You have to ask yourself how you will be remembered," he said. "As one of the three big internet giants together with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, who have enriched our world and our societies, or on the other hand, the genius that created a digital monster that is destroying our democracies and societies." I imagine you have to talk like this to a…

"Destroying democracies"? Oh please. Im pretty sure the fall of the EU has little to do with Facebook. Maybe these EU officials should look at their own parlament for blame for once. Perhaps stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency, stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states, stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers etc. - i could go on and on.

"Stop robbing your people by artificially devaluing your currency"

As opposed to every other central bank that also has low interest rates because inflation is still terrible? Sweden has negative interest rates for example and we're off the Euro.

"Stop the influx of illegal refugees into the welfare states"

How do you know if an individual refugee is lying about their refugee status? We can't collectively punish groups of people, the right to asylum is a human right that looks at the need of an individual. Everyone has the right to plead their case individually, no matter what country we're talking about.

"Stop passing silly laws regulating the form of cucumbers"

This is a myth, those are WTO and OECD regulations not voted on by the EU but by individual countries. However, instead of each EU member enforcing these regulations separately the EU enforces it centrally. If a country leaves the EU it still has to enforce these regulations to follow the WTO and make sure the countries they trade with enforces them as well.