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The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

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Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#381
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 20 years, a virtual WMD may well instantly obliterate millions of people. I'm already unsure of what the most possible damage someone could do with over-the-air automobile firmware updates is today, just to take one example. What would it be like if someone put out a virus that at 11:32:42am on March 3rd, 2036 causes every GM, Ford, and Tesla self-driving car to lock all the doors, floor the accelerator, and let t…

The problem all virus authors have is escaping detection. 2036 is too far out for them to count on not being detected, and on cars being the same. Release it today, and even if you infect all cars and are undetected, GM and Ford's normal update cycle is likely to change things such that by accident your virus cannot spread. You can expect to get a handful of cars to accelerate out of control - and odds are the door l…

"2036 is too far out for them to count on not being detected, and on cars being the same."

Sorry, I conflated two things here. I meant someone in 2036 setting a logic bomb for something like a month in advance in their time, and as a separate question, how close one could get to such a virus today. As we keep wiring up our cars to networks (not necessarily "the Internet", but networks), it's only going to get easier.

One of the problems I think will happen with cars, only accelerated by self driving cars and the high probability that people will largely lease them rather than own them, is that the governments of the world are going to see a big pot of real-time surveillance data and real-time person control mechanisms and won't be able keep their hands off, mandating that cars start getting very connected and that cars have backdoors for authorities to take over and redirect them, etc. My scenario in 2036 may not even be a brilliant virus designer, but just one person with Python scripting skills and a bit too much access to the government control system.

It's not even that hard to imagine such a disaster happening accidentally. I'm sure, no sarcasm, that protections will be put into place, but there always has to be a developer back door mechanism of some sort, and there may be enough controls added, or they may not be added competently enough.

(And in terms of the protections of the cars themselves, remember that Stuxnet included the use of not one, but two code signing certificates that the Stuxnet authors clearly did not have true authority to use. If there's a way from the Internet to the control mechanism, even if it requires signed code, there's no guarantee a particularly capable and motivated enemy won't penetrate the protections.)

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm sure whoever created it doesn't consider it a failure. Its mission was to destroy some expensive industrial centrifuges and set back Iran's nuclear program. And it destroyed some centrifuges precisely as it was designed to. At that point discovery is inevitable, but whatevs because "mission accomplished".

> It's mission was to destroy some expensive industrial centrifuges and set back Iran's nuclear program. And it destroyed some centrifuges precisely as it was designed to. At that point discovery is inevitable, but whatevs because "mission accomplished". I think it might be considered a partial success, but mostly failure. It did successfully set back Iran's nuclear program and destroy some centrifuges, but it spread…

Kinda makes you wonder why they didn't build a way to detect when it had reached its target so that they could have the remnants on other machines removed.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen HSMs in a concrete fireproof room, inside another concrete room, inside a regular room, inside a nondescript building. This one required the use of 3 persons (one to authorize entry past the 2 guys with rifles, one to unlock the vault rack with the hsm, another to authenticate to the HSM to perform work).

Company or agency?

a very large private company

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#384
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the most sophisticated piece of malware, that's for sure (at least counting the ones we know of). Isn't Stuxnet a part of a family of similar nation state malware that would also include Flame and Duqu?

They are a family, as in, all of them were almost certainly created by the same group. Symantec said that Duqu is "near identical" to Stuxnet. As for Flame, Kaspersky[0] initially said that it contains no resemblance to Stuxnet, and then later on discovered that they've even shared a zero day in their early versions. From my understanding, I don't necessarily consider them as different software, more as a single soft…

Out of topic but your defense for referencing Kaspersky makes me wonder why people would see a problem with it? I'm not familiar with the field and don't know who's who.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#385

I'd argue that Google Search is much more sophisticated than Stuxnet. Windows is much more sophisticated. Linux is more sophisticated than Stuxnet. The list goes on. We tend to ignore the sophistication of things we are familiar with, and hype those that surprise. But that's not a fair measure of anything.

In my view, the sophistication is implied by the breadth of expertise required to put the whole thing together. Google Search and the OS landscape are for sure broad and sophisticated. However, their development was accomplished by computer scientists. In order for stuxnet to be effective, it was necessary to employ expertise in: - Uranium enrichment methods and processes - Capital equipment control systems and their…

Most of the bullet points you've listed can be summed up as "business logic." I'm sure the Stuxnet programmers worked with physicists and industrial controls specialists.

Developing software for, say, jet engines requires sophisticated knowledge of jet engines, which is probably about equally complex. But it's manageable because programmers work with engineers who are subject matter experts.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#386
post #9

If this short read piked your interest in Stuxnet, I can recommend the book "Countdown to Zero Day: Stuxnet and the Launch of the World's First Digital Weapon". It explains in great detail how Stuxnet worked and, which I found the most exciting, how it was discovered and reverse engineered.

*piqued

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#387

The other day I had an argument with a proponent of online voting. As a non-techie, he could not understand my security concerns. In his laic view, we all use internet banking every day and nobody stole all the money yet, right?

For me, there is a fairly clear argument that works - online banking, you will know if there is a problem (the money is gone), online voting, you might not even _know_ it was compromised (in a close election, skewing a few percent of the votes could change the results without it being significantly different to the polls).

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#388
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem all virus authors have is escaping detection. 2036 is too far out for them to count on not being detected, and on cars being the same. Release it today, and even if you infect all cars and are undetected, GM and Ford's normal update cycle is likely to change things such that by accident your virus cannot spread. You can expect to get a handful of cars to accelerate out of control - and odds are the door l…

"2036 is too far out for them to count on not being detected, and on cars being the same." Sorry, I conflated two things here. I meant someone in 2036 setting a logic bomb for something like a month in advance in their time, and as a separate question, how close one could get to such a virus today. As we keep wiring up our cars to networks (not necessarily "the Internet", but networks), it's only going to get easier.…

My scenario in 2036 may not even be a brilliant virus designer, but just one person with Python scripting skills and a bit too much access to the government control system.

After the LocationSmart vulnerability, that seems very plausible. (If you haven't seen it: https://www.robertxiao.ca/hacking/locationsmart/)

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the evidence we have, MAD has worked. Still here. Still no WWIII. At the beginning of the twentieth century it was looking like we'd have another world war every twenty years or so for the rest of time. As best we can tell, nukes actually did end large-scale war. I would call that at least a partially mitigated disaster.

While my humble opinion is that MAD was effective, let's be careful not to infer causation from a sequence of events (the rooster crows and then the sun rises). And the events of 'MAD' and 'peace' are not in sequence: WWII ended in 1945. MAD wasn't an idea until the 1960s and not implemented in a treaty until the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty, AFAICT.[0] It makes more sense if you remember that nuclear wea…

I partly agree with you but a less charitable interpretation is that we had a bipolar hegemony that prevented full-scale wars. Many regions experienced significant violence, often caused or abetted by Western powers that turned out to be less committed to democracy and human rights when they got in the way of power politics. (Edit - or other powers that barely bothered paying lip service to human rights)

Again, I broadly agree with you and would definitely prefer to see a continuation of the past 60 years over whatever’s on the horizon, but let’s not get too rose tinted about Weatern benevolence.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#390
post #255
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not scared of what “we” are doing to “them”, but rather what “they” are doing to “us”... our power plants, dams, electrical grids, gas pipelines, traffic light networks, air traffic control systems.........

Don't forget cars, even in their current state they still have modems connected to the celluar networks.

What year did this start?
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