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The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

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Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#301
post #200

The scary thing about this is: Stuxnet is one of the "most sophisticated" pieces of malware we have discovered up until now . Who knows what kinds of software are still out there quietly doing their thing in the shadows.

Not scared of what “we” are doing to “them”, but rather what “they” are doing to “us”... our power plants, dams, electrical grids, gas pipelines, traffic light networks, air traffic control systems.........

When we split the world into the "us" vs "them" then it causes issues like this.

Your comment doesn't specify the us or them so it can apply to virtually any group.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#302
sorry, but this article is breathless crazy hyperbole. I am a cybersecurity expert that actually reverse engineered a nontrivial part of Stuxnet at one point, and I have reverse engineered other government-built worms and persistence mechanisms.

Driver signing keys are not nearly as difficult to steal as the answer implies; not only are they shoddily managed in most hardware vendors, they could also be purchased on the black market for about 50k$ at the time. They are still not very difficult to come by.

Zero-days (e.g. security vulnerabilities and their corresponding exploits) can be purchased on the grey market, and some are developed by government-internal teams. These are little marvels of strange engineering, but they are also a relatively common occurrence. The total market prices of the exploits in Stuxnet will have amounted to perhaps a few million $ at the time.

The Stuxnet worm’s code showed all the artifacts you would have in a large software project - including but not limited to “handwriting” where you could see that a small team of engineers and architects were excellent developers who delegated the implementation of less-important parts to engineers of lesser ability.

There have been leaner, more elegant, and similarly powerful / crazy pieces of malware.

In general, though, these things are not made of magic, and they are not the most brilliant software ever made. They are usually well-engineered by decent engineers, built by a motivated team with decent funding. Even then, mistakes creep in (Stuxnet had an infamously broken mechanism to limit propagation), multiple versions need to be rolled out, and problems & bugs plague any software system.

Now, comparing something like Stuxnet — a relatively small, well-engineered but ultimatively not terribly innovative assembly of known methods — to something like Google’s data center infrastructure (Borg/Flume/Mapreduce/Bigtable/Spanner), the Windows or Linux Kernel etc. and concluding Stuxnet is somehow superior or more sophisticated is simply false.

Stuxnet was cool etc., but I can assure you the level of sophistication is less than the Windows Kernel, the Linux Kernel, or Google’s data processing infrastructure, by far.

This is unsurprising: Stuxnet is a much smaller operation. Building Windows has probably cost many billion dollars by now. Stuxnet, on the other hand, was likely running on a shoestring budget in comparison.

Assembling a highly impactful worm is much cheaper and simpler than people think; most of our IT infrastructure is not very robust.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so true. upvoted

The sophistication of a piece of code is not merely an attribute of its complexity. Else a program with tons of accidental complexity (a badly written program by an intern) would be equally good with a program with huge essential complexity (a 10 line program that takes tons of domain and/or programming knowledge to write)...

youre right. upvoted

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's mission was to destroy some expensive industrial centrifuges and set back Iran's nuclear program. And it destroyed some centrifuges precisely as it was designed to. At that point discovery is inevitable, but whatevs because "mission accomplished". I think it might be considered a partial success, but mostly failure. It did successfully set back Iran's nuclear program and destroy some centrifuges, but it spread…

^ Exactly If Stuxnet was as successful as I'm sure its creators wanted it to be, we wouldn't be discussing it.

Not necessarily. It would be bound to be have found at some point in time. The article mentions it took at least a year before anyone knew about it.

And perhaps there is an even more technical worm out there still hidden and stuxnet was merely a first draft.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#305
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are indicative of the public’s enduring lack of technology literacy, and the media’s desire to have facts and eyeballs meet halfway. Media reports Russian election interference via digital ad spend, astroturfing, and infiltration attempts on state voting systems accurately, but the views to that reporting probably pale in comparison to the oversimplified, tweet-size “Russia hacked the 2016 US election” reportin…

> But it’s also worth it to consider whether the lack of awareness/awe over Stuxnet vis a vis Russian election tampering is simply due to technology illiteracy, or whether media is not considering the notability of the means, just the effect of the ends. No, it's because the media is ultimately subservient to power regardless of what they might think of themselves. US attacks on countries designated by power as enemi…

That may be the larger factor, but I also believe that if you control for the media perspective on the perpetrator and targets of separate incidents, something like Stuxnet and its sophistication will be given less emphasis, because its sophistication is beyond the public's technology literacy, and would be considered too "inside baseball".

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#306

I'd argue that Google Search is much more sophisticated than Stuxnet. Windows is much more sophisticated. Linux is more sophisticated than Stuxnet. The list goes on. We tend to ignore the sophistication of things we are familiar with, and hype those that surprise. But that's not a fair measure of anything.

In my view, the sophistication is implied by the breadth of expertise required to put the whole thing together. Google Search and the OS landscape are for sure broad and sophisticated. However, their development was accomplished by computer scientists. In order for stuxnet to be effective, it was necessary to employ expertise in: - Uranium enrichment methods and processes - Capital equipment control systems and their…

Wouldn't the people who know the physical things just write requirements for those farther on down the chain?

The threat analysts say, we need to destroy Iran's ability to make nuclear weapons. The nuclear weapons specialists say, the part where we can best do that is by somehow breaking their centrifuges. The centrifuge technician they call up says, "well, x RPMs will really ruin those things. And it would be hard to tell if they did it like this..." Then the software guys make the code that ruins the centrifuge, and the red team incorporates it into their fancy worm, with specs on what exactly to look for.

Ultimately, it was kind of a failure in that anyone found out about it. Maybe there were better programs, and because they were better we never heard about them at all. But still it's pretty amazing :)

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second piece of code is not more complex, but it is (presumably) a lot more sophisticated. The fact that I had to prefix that with "(presumably)"—i.e. I can't actually tell using my own expertise—is evidence of that.

upvoted thanks

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistication

> Sophistication has come to mean a few things, but its original definition was "to denature, or simplify". Today it is common as a measure of refinement

So no, it can in many cases even be the precise opposite of complexity.

It actually originally comes from "sophistry", which is an ancient greek discipline of wisdom and excellence. I would generally associate the word with a high level of complexity that has been expertly reduced and refined to an elegant quality.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're quickly heading toward the age of the first Virtual WMD. The implications can be as wide as your imagination, but possibly worse than existing WMDs.

A significant amount of how our society approaches technology issues almost seems like everyone has agreed that they WANT a gigantic catastrophe. Like they want to see an action-movie-scale real life supervillain to emerge who uses technology to severely harm people. I won't be surprised when one nutcase has prison doors flying open, planes falling from the sky, ATMs nationwide spilling into the streets, stock market…

Yep. Our (global) civilization carries within it the seeds of its own destruction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_and_Its_Disconten...

Corollary: It is vital (no pun intended) that we learn to live in harmony with Nature or we will destroy ourselves.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#309

I'd argue that Google Search is much more sophisticated than Stuxnet. Windows is much more sophisticated. Linux is more sophisticated than Stuxnet. The list goes on. We tend to ignore the sophistication of things we are familiar with, and hype those that surprise. But that's not a fair measure of anything.

To me the primary difference is the software you mention performs their tasks in the open with cooperative users.

Stuxnet installed itself without cooperation, hid itself perfectly and still completed its objective flawlessly against a hostile user base.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#310
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a hard time imagining a virtual WMD that is worse than the instant obliteration of millions of people.

Blackouts. Do what Stuxnet did to the control rooms of a large number of power plants, spinning up the machines to hard, coordinate this attack so it triggers in a large number of places. If you can pull this off for a continental scale, you're looking at potentially months to restore power to everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2015_Ukraine_power_gr...

Actually for power plants it isn't quite so simple. Because turbines and turbogenerators at nominal speed are quite close to the limit of what the material can support, they have multiple independent fail-safes. For example, if you tried to spin a turbine above safe speed, quick acting valves redirect the steam elsewhere in a fraction of a second.

However, there are absolutely things you could do in a power plant that greatly accelerate wear. It might be possible to accelerate wear enough to achieve failure of some parts before the next maintenance happens.

"Just shutting a plant off" on the other hand is not too difficult; for most plants and upstream systems "off" is the safe state, so all systems are designed to fail into that state, if they really have to.

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