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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#381
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

It's more like a combination of general intelligence/aptitude and willingness to put up with BS and stick to a plan.

[deleted]

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

Software engineers are unlike almost any other advanced technical field, as in there is so much demand and so much change in the field that degrees aren't as important. After a few years of experience, that's what matters more. But i bet that first job is hard to get.

If, instead of using the metric getting a job as a Software Engineer, you used building and deploying quality software in a timely and cost-effective manner, then a CS and/or SE degree may be very important.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#383
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is not at all under attack at universities. What's happening is that shitty people are no longer able to say shitty things without being called out on it. That's what they're upset about.

White people wanting to go to their college campus are being "shitty people"?

That is nowhere near what's happening. Trying to reduce it to that is extremely uncivil.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-your-iq-strongly-influenc... >A growing body of research suggests general cognitive ability may be the best predictor of job performance. Of course there are other factors as well, but IQ is one of the biggest factors and it's taboo to even mention it.

There are a few ways I could reply to this comment. 1. I could try and attack the evidence, by linking studies such as http://digitalcommons.sacredheart.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... which found that conscientiousness is better correlated with grades (a proxy for job performance) than SAT score (a proxy for IQ), but that's not a very strong claim considering all the proxy measures involved (and it still does show tha…

If we're going to have a discussion about ending the requirement for a college degree or other seemingly arbitrary job requirements we have to understand why companies seek those things. The answer is that companies want to hire smart workers. It's fine to suggest that the degree requirement is wasteful, but I don't think we can expect employers to stop using that metric if we can't offer a better one. IQ is already something employers are looking for, even if they use coded language like "smart" or "problem solvers." Let's at least make it explicitly legal for them to ask for it.

I'm not going to suggest that there's absolutely no bias in the IQ tests themselves, but we've come a long way with them, and they're certainly going to be less biased than the average human who is hiring. Your IQ has no race or gender.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military could be a good choice for some people, but I don't know if I'd call it a great gig. Out of all the 10 or so people I know fairly well who are active duty or former military (Marines, Air Force, and Navy, I don't think I know any Army people unless you count National Guard). 2 have serious PTSD. 1 of those, my neighbor, was just arrested for forging pain med prescriptions--he got hooked after he was seri…

A young women going into the Air Force in a support role is highly unlikely to ever be near the front lines; that is the bailiwick of the Army and Marines. She wants to go into a PR role, so the chances of this are slim. I grew up a military brat, did almost 10 years myself in the Corps. I was in during DS1 and almost no one I know from that "war" has PTSD. I personally know several Marines who sent dozens of people…

> almost no one I know from that "war" has PTSD

Just because someone doesn't freely offer up that information or says they don't have something, doesn't mean they actually don't have it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#386

The statistics in this opinion piece are cherry picked to hell. "People who have dropped out of college — about 40 percent of all who attend — earn only a bit more than do people with only a high school education: $38,376 a year versus $35,256." A small difference between college drop out salary vs high school diploma salary only says that the key is to actually get a degree. half of a degree is worth much less than…

I think you're being too harsh. Lots of marginal students are encouraged to go to college and many of them study things like history or communications that aren't good investments. These marginal students drop out at high rates, but still have 10s of thousands of dollars in student debt. Because most of the benefits of going to college only occur if you actually graduate with a degree it's a waste for these students…

> I think you're being too harsh. Lots of marginal students are encouraged to go to college

Notice that "don't go to college if you're going to drop out" is NOT the article's fundamental claim.

That piece of advice would be above the author's criticism. But it also wouldn't get a single upvote, let alone make the front page, because it's prime facie obvious.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#387
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White people wanting to go to their college campus are being "shitty people"?

That is nowhere near what's happening. Trying to reduce it to that is extremely uncivil.

I don't understand.

Students asked for white people to not come to the college for a day, a white professor disagreed with this, the students called for him to be fired.

Pressuring people of a certain race to stay home seems wrong, and I don't think the professor is shitty for standing up to it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#388
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

Before I earned my degree, I had countless interviewers tell me that they wouldn't consider me until I had one, in spite of my "not insignificant" experience and interest in the field. (It was sysadmin at the time.)

So I got my degree. Suddenly, the interviewers - some of them the same as before - changed their positions to not considering me in spite of having the qualifications, but because I had no experience.

So before it was experience but no degree, then it was degree but no experience. It's been about eight years since I gave up trying to find work appropriate to my training.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS. I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just f…

Your résumé is a marketing document. You don't have to put anything about your education on there if you have other stuff worth mentioning, like work experience and personal projects. This may increase your hit rate.

I had an argument with one guy who would fire you for "lying in an interview" if you didn't tell him you had a degree, or list it on your resume. His position was that people with degrees would work for him until a better job came along and then just move along, wasting his time "training" them. (Basic laboring work.)

He didn't understand that he was just hiring the lowest common denominator because he wouldn't run a workplace that people wanted to stay in. I've long wondered how many exceptional people he's cast off because they didn't fit his employment profile of "no hope, minimum wage."

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#390
post #214
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing opportunity cost. If you're in school full-time, you're not working full-time. That costs the salary you're not making and the experience you're not getting, on top of what you pay for school plus interest (because unless your parents are rich or you're That Counterexample, you're borrowing). In return, you go to school, which one hopes is worth the cost over the course of the rest of your life, howeve…

It isn't fair to include an opportunity cost in this calculation because yoy wouldn't have most of those opportunities without college.

People don't work or learn without having attended college college?
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