College May Not Be Worth It Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#341

Post by refurb » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

zaccus wrote: post #255

mkirklions wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

With that schedule, were you able to do much in the way of networking? That's part of the 'college experience', and is often cited as one of the greatest benefits of going to college.

Working can be a great way to network as well, particularly if you can land a job in the industry you're interested in.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#342

Post by Joeri » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

There aren’t that many art majors. There are a lot of business majors though, probably too many.

In my country (belgium) the universities are mostly funded through taxation. The government negotiates per-student reimbursement rates with the universities, different rates for different degrees. The average all-in cost of a student is around 12K euro per year, with the student paying 1K of that and the government providing the rest. The resulting education is of a quality matching good colleges in the U.S. at a fraction of the cost, while still paying faculty a decent wage. The catch is the heavy government involvement and price controls, this is counter to the U.S. philosophy of the role of government, which is why this system could never work there. Additionally, all-in tax rates are double those of the U.S. (also is used to provide universal healthcare), effectively nationalizing huge chunks of the economy.

The focus should be on bringing down tuition fees. Whether you pay for tuition in debt repayment or taxes, the result is the same. Arguably debt is fairer than taxes because every individual gets to choose whether they want to carry that burden.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#343

Post by ktosobcy » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

andrewvc wrote: post #36

College is probably a great thing for some people, but it's been oversold. It's not the destination, it's just one way of getting there. One reason why it's so easy to sell, is that college is a near universal experience for the middle and upper classes, and being an expensive experience, people credit it with much of the personal growth that happens in one's early 20s. They also credit it with making them good at th…

This may be mostly true for CS and around, but… I wouldn't like to put my personal well-being in hands of self-thought surgeon…

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#344

Post by replicatorblog » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

andrewvc wrote: post #268

Distribution wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure some can learn just as well on their own as in college, but that is really not the main benefit of it. The main benefit is that the people at your college are self-selecting: they have similar interests as you do, they have similar ambition, they have similar abilities. If this college is a good one, you are going to meet more brilliant, fun, and engaging people in your 4 years than you would in almost any o…

If you go to an Ivy, everything you wrote is incredibly true. Going to any Ivy or other elite (or even semi-elite) school is a HUGE benefit if for no reason other than networking. As you move down the scale that becomes less and less true. People go, learn whatever they learn, get few if any connections, and wind up with a pile of debt. So, we've created an incredibly regressive system. One other thing to note. When…

This is a really important point. Often, elite discussions about the importance of college come from people who fondly remember their time at Harvard, and not those burnt by "schools" like the Boston Architectural College which has a 100% acceptance rate and charges $20K a year, Or Suffolk University which can barely hold onto its accreditation, but charges $37K a year to study "international business."

By bucketing all these experience together as if they're the same experience does a tremendous disservice to those who can least afford to make a six-figure mistake.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#345

Post by Nav_Panel » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #263

Nav_Panel wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ doesn't seem nearly as relevant as conscientiousness and ability to follow directions. College success really acts as a proxy for "I am able to complete assigned tasks under stress." I also imagine the relationship between IQ and productivity isn't exactly linear...

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-your-iq-strongly-influenc... >A growing body of research suggests general cognitive ability may be the best predictor of job performance. Of course there are other factors as well, but IQ is one of the biggest factors and it's taboo to even mention it.

There are a few ways I could reply to this comment.

1. I could try and attack the evidence, by linking studies such as http://digitalcommons.sacredheart.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... which found that conscientiousness is better correlated with grades (a proxy for job performance) than SAT score (a proxy for IQ), but that's not a very strong claim considering all the proxy measures involved (and it still does show that IQ matters).

2. I could attack the article you linked: "employers are more interested in employees' social skills than their cognitive ability" seems correct, in that communication is a key difficulty in jobs at large organization, much more than any individual's cognitive capacity. One could claim it's better at a large org to "satisfice" for IQ while optimizing for social skill. "Emotional Intelligence" vs "Cognitive Ability" as linked later in the article also doesn't seem to capture a sufficiently broad space of factors. And what is "culture fit" about, then?

3. We could talk about the taboo on discussing IQ. I could discuss my experience talking with supporters of "human bio-diversity", geneticists who seemed quite interested in discussing correlations between "various socio-cultural factors" and IQ, mostly with the intent of riling up people, or playing a contrarian position. Many people have a weak understanding of IQ and genetics, and end up drawing incorrect and occasionally repugnant conclusions based on the data (typically due to a lack of understanding that, across generations, genetics are malleable, IQ is malleable, etc).

"Some people use the data badly" isn't a strong argument against mainstreaming discussion of IQ. A stronger argument might be that individuals like to feel ownership over their own lives. Telling people that "IQ, which is determined mostly genetically, is the largest factor in your job performance (read: life success)" chips away at the common knowledge that an individual has significant personal agency, which is important as a philosophical basis behind various facets of western culture. Scott Alexander at Slate Star Codex tries to synthesize the two sides (one side wants to mainstream IQ, the other feels their self-narrative is threatened, hence the synthesis that it doesn't matter so much on an individual level) here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/27/against-individual-iq-w... but not everyone finds his arguments compelling.

All this isn't to say I agree or disagree that there should be a taboo -- I personally don't have a stance, but would prefer not to hire based on the metric -- but I did want to share some reasons that an objector might give against making it an acceptable measure.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#346

Post by refurb » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #276

Reedx wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's referring to the "Day of Absence" where white people were not supposed to be on campus. A white progressive professor dared go to work that day and they tried to destroy him for it. It's also a big problem that free speech is increasingly under attack at universities. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-tur...

Free speech is not at all under attack at universities. What's happening is that shitty people are no longer able to say shitty things without being called out on it. That's what they're upset about.

Your first sentence and last two are contradictory.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#347

Post by Fomite » Thu, May 17, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #270

VikingCoder wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. And I'm just talking out of my ass about my own theories, here. I still welcome conversation to try to inform myself. Roughly, I think we should think in terms of Trade Schools and Liberal Arts programs. I'm a huge fan of Liberal Arts programs, but I don't think they should be a pre-requisite for a STEM career. They also shouldn't be a pre-requisite for many jobs that people have today. We should all be…

I think Liberal Arts programs absolutely should be a prereq for STEM careers. One of the reasons tech is in the state it is, is due to the lack of ethics courses taught.

I've posted this before, but a year or so ago I was at a major medical research conference for my field (infectious diseases). I was struck when I realized that in every single plenary talk, given by people at the peak of their careers and having a huge impact on science, there was something that betrayed an underlying liberal arts education.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#348

Post by brlewis » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

jrs95 wrote: post #295

bluedevil2k wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make the college take a 10% stake in any loan taken out to attend that school. The colleges would be a lot more selective about who they let in (hint: not everyone) and what their students' majors were.

Maybe that would work if colleges were publicly traded or something, but otherwise I think internal politics and ideological motivations are probably too strong for this to actually work.

It won't work regardless. They'll just raise tuition by the amount they expect to lose.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#349

Post by superkuh » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:10 PM UTC

Many workplaces require college degrees when they aren't required for any direct reason because it shows the applicant is willing to bend over and take it in the way a good worker should. It's peacock feathers signifying you're willing to fit in.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#350

Post by pmiller2 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

alkarin wrote: post #284

shaftway wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS. I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just f…

Your résumé is a marketing document. You don't have to put anything about your education on there if you have other stuff worth mentioning, like work experience and personal projects. This may increase your hit rate.