I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…
I tend to shy away from UBI in favor of something like a guaranteed federal jobs program. My fear is that UBI will tempt policy makers to cut social programs. "We gave you money, buy your own medical insurance". With guaranteed jobs we can put more work into our infrastructure while eliminating unemployment, which helps keep fair labor practices in the forefront of employer's minds.
College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
291–300 of 437 posts
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s. You could double the number of vet grads and vets would still be able to make a comfortable living.
> Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s... Eh... depends on the job. I don't think that most prospective veterinarians dream of working for the USDA ($$$) when they graduate.
[1] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/veterinarian/sala...
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
I tend to shy away from UBI in favor of something like a guaranteed federal jobs program. My fear is that UBI will tempt policy makers to cut social programs. "We gave you money, buy your own medical insurance". With guaranteed jobs we can put more work into our infrastructure while eliminating unemployment, which helps keep fair labor practices in the forefront of employer's minds.
Many social programs should get cut if we get UBI. I also think many more programs should be socialized. Notably college and healthcare. I'm not sure if I have reasonable arguments for which things should and should not be socialized. Guaranteed jobs force people to work. That forces people to have latch-key kids, or daycare. Family bonding is ridiculously important. Early childhood development is the most important…
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not to pick on them, but do we really need this many Art History Majors? You cannot calculate how many art history majors the world needs. You just need to trust people to act vaguely in their own interest, and society's interest, most of the time and to trust that things will work out. Consider the important exceptions to this approach, where we try to match the number of students to demand. You can sort of calcul…
If the student loan default rate is high, they are accepting too many. That's a metric that would work today. A metric that might work in the future is to look at employment and job satisfaction. > You just need to trust people to act vaguely in their own interest, and society's interest, most of the time and to trust that things will work out. Sure. And I want free college, and progressive taxation. I also advise th…
Are you proposing a system where a school would accept you, decide there were too many of your preferred major, and kick you out or choose another?
The other option would be to force 17/18 year olds to choose their future careers while in high school.
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#295I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…
Make the college take a 10% stake in any loan taken out to attend that school. The colleges would be a lot more selective about who they let in (hint: not everyone) and what their students' majors were.
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nah, it had nothing to do with your personal racism toward your friends for being Mexican. If you didnt pass math and engineering, you didnt care enough. Your friends treated college like high school or worse. If you did 100% of the homework, read the chapter before class, studied for tests, you wouldnt be failing out of college. At worst case, the classes are hard enough you get a C or D in a class. But that isnt en…
> Nah, it had nothing to do with your personal racism toward your friends for being Mexican. Dude I'm Mexican. I showed you stats on high dropout rates of other hispanics and you call me racist, meanwhile claiming all of those dropouts are lazy. >If you didnt pass math and engineering, you didnt care enough[...] Lets be honest here, if you put those kinda hours into engineering school, you can expect to get As and Bs…
Your friends shouldve studied harder. It sounds like you knew what needed to be done.
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
>You're filtering for someone who is mainstream and complacent; you're filtering for someone who won't question, let alone challenge, the groupthink. Weird sentence in this big post, I felt it was out of place. I never thought this was a thing in both college and industry. Everywhere Ive been encouraged you to challenge everything. The goal is to be correct by any means necessary. (Engineering school, I cant speak fo…
> I never thought this was a thing in both college and industry. Everywhere Ive been encouraged you to challenge everything. The goal is to be correct by any means necessary. (Engineering school, I cant speak for other degrees) "Of course we challenge groupthink. That's just what they told us to do." Are you missing the irony here?
There is a reality to things, and you know its true.
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, my HS counselor, in speeches to students at assemblies (c.1999), was constantly saying "It doesn't matter which college you go to, but you absolutely must get a degree."
As a 1999 graduate, I can verify the "College is the only way to succeed" sentiment from that time. Most of my class had applied for and been accepted well before we graduated. Sadly, many of them acquired lots of debt, and not much else. I advise any young people I get to talk with about post high school education to not jump head first into a degree program. Life won't pass you by if you take a year or two to formu…
I applaud you for this. There's often so much pressure from every single direction around a young adult to attend college including internal pressure. After having been the first from my immediate family and older to graduate I feel I am also the first in my family to have an opinion or advice worth giving to another person in that position.
The thing I always say is that it's almost worse to go to college with no plan or "track" to graduating and your goals. Maybe you need a year after high school to figure out your direction as you work a job or two to earn some tuition and spending money before you embark on your educational crusade.
I'm not sure if my personal feelings and abilities apply to many other folks but after K-12 (public schooling) and voluntarily enrolling in university (~4 more years of education) I have a really hard time willingly singing myself up to learn anything new in a "traditional US Public education environment" for lack of better words / explanation. So my advice is to get a plan together, make sure you are motivated and mentally prepared to work hard toward your goal, and make sure you get it done in the time you set aside for yourself. From my POV I don't think I could ever willingly mentally allow myself to go back into student mode. Learning is on my time, to my tastes and liking now. But that feeling only started to come into my life after I was able to get my bachelor's degree. That said, what I mean here is: If you are going to go through all the trouble of going to college you might as well take it extremely seriously. Treat it like it's your job, your #1 priority. Everything comes after your education. It doesn't mean you can't have fun or you can't live your life but it does mean that you should be treating your education seriously and more importantly you should be understanding that you are paying A LOT of money to be there. You aren't going to conjure up all the mental fortitude and courage to re-motivate yourself to go back to school once you've mustered up the strength and courage to quit the first time. Don't give yourself a chance to "get back to it" unless you truly have no other chance / better route to take.
I LOVE LEARNING but I DO NOT LOVE the US's curriculum and standardized test-based education system. Having worked with kids (5-10y/o) for over a decade and having gone through everything they are preparing to go through (university, a degree, and the hunt to obtain the start to their career) I can see many of the issues that plague the education system, I see oh-so-many ways that it's failing or coming up entirely too short for our youth, and sadly enough I'm also realizing how simple it sounds to say, "We need to fix the education system." but also how incredibly difficult it is to actually change this system.
Now we are at this pinnacle of an education decision where it seems to feel like we are teetering on a two-decision contest that's been randomly and seemingly created from the system in place which will decide, somewhat, the future of education:
The current and traditional system, which we have in place now, demands we all work hard and achieve to the highest degree in order to attend a good college / university where we will work hard and achieve to the highest degree in order to obtain a great job where we'll work hard and attempt to achieve to the highest degree.
In primary school you work hard and learn the foundations and basics in order to get successfully get to intermediate school. In intermediate school you work hard and gain new tools to apply to your future work you must do to prepare for your future which takes place in high school. In high school you work hard, continue building on your foundation, add new tools, sharpen existing tools and you learn ways to combine tools together, and ultimately you start preparing and applying elsewhere to continue your education in university / college.
I don't remember a single teacher or single talk specifically dedicated toward building a future / career path that had anything to do with going immediately into working after high school. Everything was always pointing towards that next step in your education. If you had a question a teacher couldn't answer about why you must study a certain subject or certain annoying portion of an obscure subject you will most likely be met with something along the lines of needing to know it for the next level of schooling or college.
So that's our current system which we now know is not optimal. We may have known before but now we have evidence in a bunch of different ways and formats that prove that things should be done a bit differently.
Now, what's the other way I envision education teetering if it doesn't teeter toward things staying the same, traditionally? While it may sound 1984'ish I think with our rapidly growing technology that time and energy could be much better spent treating students like prospects, unknown quantities, or "living tools" as they go through their education, find out what they enjoy and excel at, and ultimately where they can create value for society that also compensates them appropriately.
In the same way that an auto manufacturer is looking to save as much money as it can moving into the future one adjustment they might decide on making is standardizing their line of automobiles they manufacture and sell. A semi-recent iteration of this situation that comes to mind is a system where by many automobiles of different classes, shapes, sizes, and marketing segments all share many parts. If Ford has 10 automobile models they make and sell. The idea with the system is to have as few unique parts overall as possible. Having all 10 of the models share as many parts as possible creates many avenues for saving and efficiency overall. Beyond that when Ford hires new talent, unless they are working on the very specific and unique portions of the 10 models, the unique parts that separate the 10 models and make them "unique", that new hire will be working on one of the parts that the 10 models share. If you train the new hire to work on Model 1's drive train you've also successfully trained them to work on the drive train of Model 1 through 10th's drive train as well, since they share as many parts under the cosmetic outer plastic shell as they can, to save money and simplify, as much as possible, their complex assembly line.
Now I imagine the other way society could treat education teetering away from tradition toward a new way has to look towards the past in order to succeed any way. They may have to travel to the time where the industrial revolution helped kick start a much needed economical boom here in the US. Sure conditions were terrible and they hadn't thought of every single issue and situation that may have cropped up but at the heart of the issue, the inner kernel? The assembly line was a key to unlocking an entirely new and higher level of ability to create and achieve than humans had ever known prior.
Then it'd be time to find out the best ways, using technology and standardized testing, to provide our youth an education that allows them the flexibility to fit into many different jobs and markets across the entire work force. Using traditional standardized tests and tests that test things other than mental fortitude, which schools are already known to do through Physical Education, educators and students can be exposed to and educated early about different types of careers and specific jobs within them.
The idea is that the education system helps society fill and plug holes in the work force using the potential future work force to do so. What I'm trying to avoid is what happened to my brother. Someone caught in the crossfire of the "YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO GO TO COLLEGE TO SUCCEED!" and the "YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE TO DO ANY WORK IN EDUCATION!". There is no reason, in 2018 where we have so much technology and know how, that so many people should be sinking $100,000's into student loans for degrees that indicate that a graduating student has achieved to a level where they create a specific high level of value in a given subject.
That's all great and good, sure, but when society already knows (whether it's said or not) that there is no special or greater need for workers / employees with that degree or set of skills people like my brother are stuck stringing together part time jobs, squandering his time and previous energy he's put forth, and slowly but surely driving himself crazy and he stares at reoccurring student loan bills coupled with rejections from places he's applied to (if he get's any sort of reply at all).
I'm not sure if it's positive and I'd love to know / see / hear someone else's findings on the specific topic but if I'm a high school junior / senior RIGHT NOW and VISUAL BASIC PROGRAMMING (just bare with me, just making an example here) is INSANELY IN DEMAND right now and the market just can't stop throwing brief cases full of cash at VB DEV's, strike while the iron's hot! There is NO guarantee that by the time I graduate university with a degree in Computer Science that Visual Basic will still be hot and in demand in the market.
In fact I think, knowing what I've known over my short career, that an individual planning their future and skill set based on only that little bit of information would be very lucky to find work that allows them to live comfortably and such as they continue through life -- hopefully able to live their life in peace WHILE paying back those student loans.
Wow, that was long winded, but obviously you can tell I've spent a lot of time an energy giving thought to this specific topic. It's a hard one to find a place to let loose about everything I'm thinking about so I'm sorry for letting it all go here!
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#299I've always had a strong interest in computer art (3d modeling / animation, video games, special effects) and SUNY Oneonta was one of the few schools at the time that offered a program in that field (without leaving New York). In my free time through high school I would dabble in Photoshop, 3DS Max, Maya, etc. I wouldn't say that I ever became exceptionally good, but my interests continued to grow. I was genuinely excited for college.
The first thing I learned was wow, college is way more expensive than I imagined! Students were required to live on campus, pay for the maximum meal plan, unable to have a car for the first two years (relied heavily on public transportation), cost of books, cost of art/class supplies, cost of food / grocery items. With a full course load, finding the time to work a part time job felt impossible. I spent most of my free time on school work and staying up very late some nights working on large art assignments - painting, drawing, mixed media, ceramics and so on. The first two years of college were mostly "core" classes, meaning I wasn't able to take classes pertaining to my major (computer art) until I've completed them. It was high school all over again, almost identical classes.
Finally, 2 years down, 2 to go and I was excited to finally take some computer art courses. I quickly signed up for 3d modeling, animation, web design, anything I could get my hands on. Almost immediately, I was disappointed. The courses being taught were below my current knowledge level (even advanced courses). For example, the web design courses were still entirely using tables for layout with Photoshop "slices" when the rest of the world was primarily using divs/css. Everything was very outdated brief overviews of the basics. I couldn't believe that such basic courses would result in me obtaining a major in this field? It also made me feel inadequate when preparing to find a job after school.
It was about this time that I took on an internship at a local web design/development company (of about 5 people). My interests quickly changed from Computer Art to Web Development. I really enjoyed building websites, working with customers and trying new things. After my internship ended I was hired by this company for $15/hr, which sounded really great out of school. Not long after, the management eventually began struggling with finances and I left that company, taking a graphic designer position to keep money in my account. College ended and my total debt was ~$77,000, ouch...
Six months pass since graduating and my student loans are now coming in, ~$1,200 a month was my starting payment. I was making $14.86/hr. and life was really hard. I did everything I could do to reduce my payments which eventually dropped to ~$700 / month, but with rent, vehicle expenses, health insurance, food, etc, I was missing payments and defaulted on one of my loans. My credit was destroyed, I was living check to check (barely)... I resented college.
Today, I am in my early 30's working as a Software Developer. My credit is slowly repairing (just bought a house last year!) and I am making triple my old salary. I wish that I had more time in college to truly learn what I wanted to do and explore a bit more instead of taking the "core" classes the first two years re-learning "western civilization" and "earth science". If I could go back in time I'd get a proper Computer Science degree, instead of being a Software Developer with a Bachelors of Arts. I know the position I have now would not have been offered to me if I didn't have a college degree (CEO is very fond of college graduates), but it certainly came at a cost... I have two young kids now and I often wonder, will I also recommend they go to college?
Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…
With that schedule, were you able to do much in the way of networking? That's part of the 'college experience', and is often cited as one of the greatest benefits of going to college.
I also dont think college was great to meet people. I had some friends, but none that turned out to be ambitious like me.