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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#121

Post by hirundo »

somerando wrote: post #50

Outside of work, I know a number of folks with degrees from Stanford, Berkeley, Santa Clara. These folks are not in tech. They love to bust on San Jose State University like its the worst thing ever. At work, in tech, I know a number of folks with degrees from San Jose State University. They are hard working and successful millionaires. The folks in the first group would LITERALLY DIE if their kids went to San Jose S…

I got a teaching credential from San Jose State. The piece of paper helped me get a demeaning job in the indoctrination industry. Other than that the education was almost completely worthless. Except perhaps from the character building of enduring endless drivel, and I didn't need to go to college for that. Turns out the job wasn't worth the effort, and since then I've had a decent career doing things that I learned independently.

College was close to free for me. At that price it was still way too expensive. I doubt that is the case for the best students at the best schools. But for the rest of us, I advise being highly skeptical of the value of a modern college education. Especially of the education department at SJSU.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#122

Post by SilasX »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #110
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

It's more like a combination of general intelligence/aptitude and willingness to put up with BS and stick to a plan.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#123

Post by aarongough »

awalton wrote: post #12
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The NYTimes republishes a variant of this articles almost every month https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nytimes.com+college+wor... The usual answer is "it depends"

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either.

Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be merit based.

I have mostly interviewed with small/medium businesses in Toronto, but have also done early stage interviews with Google where it was also not brought up. I declined further interviews with Google because I didn't want to move, so maybe it would have been an issue later on.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#124

Post by Nav_Panel »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #110
awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

IQ doesn't seem nearly as relevant as conscientiousness and ability to follow directions. College success really acts as a proxy for "I am able to complete assigned tasks under stress." I also imagine the relationship between IQ and productivity isn't exactly linear...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#125

Post by timr »

macinjosh wrote: post #102
timr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.

Winnow the pool to rich people who can afford college that is.

Or perhaps less cynically, winnowing the pool to the group of people who have the personalities and temperaments necessary to complete a college degree. It doesn't have to be a perfect filter; false negatives don't matter so much if your filter leads to enrichment.

I'm not saying it's "fair", I'm just saying there are rational reasons to do it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#126

Post by lamchob »

adamnemecek wrote: post #73

America needs apprenticeships. E.g. in Czech Republic you can attend these vocational schools instead of high schools and there's less of a stigma to attending them. There are schools for programmers, nurses, car mechanics. Particularly the programmer ones let you do learn idk, basic networking, 3d programming and some basic entrepreneurship (accounting etc). I believe it's one of the reasons it has the lowest unempl…

Czech Rep. Is not the only country with this system, Germany has it as well. In Germany we have the problem that a lot of parents want their kids to go to college and dont do the apprenticeship programs. In recent decades there has been a major shift in school attendance. Today, the majority of pupils attend the A-Levels school, preparing for college. Some decades ago, most pupils were attending the shorter school programs preparing for apprenticeships.

The result are full universities, with huge wave in Buiseness related fields. And on the other hand the traditional trades like carpenters or electrcians can't find new apprentices. Those who learned a trade now make tons of money due to the sheer lack of qualified tradeworkers.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#127

Post by IkmoIkmo »

paulpauper wrote: post #2

The NYTimes republishes a variant of this articles almost every month https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nytimes.com+college+wor... The usual answer is "it depends"

To what extent is it still news. It's not just this topic, it's a whole range of subjects. e.g. the same articles are written and rewritten on housing all the time. And the notion I get sent an article by a friend, see it on FB, twitter, a debate, the paper itself and the half dozen that will cover it by referring to the article in an opinion piece, doesn't help. I'm finding it increasingly more difficult to get meaningful new news or rather, new insights from media channels. It's really frustrating.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#128

Post by [deleted] »

jhawk28 wrote: post #69
whataretensors wrote: post #51

School is a waste of time and resources for the talented these days. You can learn anything you want online by the best people. It's becoming training for state-run communism. No choice, only negative reward signals, march at the same speed as the average. Of course if we tell people the truth - your outcome can essentially be predicted by measuring IQ, which stabilizes around age 7. SAT score is essentially a makesh…

You are missing the cultural implications of college. In our society, college has been setup as the "growing up" period where parents can pay some place who will provide food, clothing, and knowledge. The "kids" are pseudo on their own and can become independent.

[deleted]

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#129

Post by RoyTyrell »

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

> Veterinarian programs specific limit how many students they accept, because if they didn't, their graduates wouldn't be able to afford a living wage.

Are you sure that's the only reason? Are the reasons the same for medical school too?

I think people should be allowed to pursue any major they desire. The only way you can really enforce quotas on everything is probably through laws or policies set by the Dept of Education by forcing schools that want to take their loans to set quotas. My opinion is, then you're getting into the central planning problems of the government knows best.

I would like to see tuition at community colleges reduced so its affordable to all, which would include free for those at or near poverty lines. For regular universities, I don't think it's unfair for those taking loans to have to attend some type of in-person seminar that: * summarizes the work load and type of study their proposed majors require * outlines current and projected job prospects and income * financial planing that helps them figure out how many years it will take the pay back their loans based off of job prospects and income, and what that means for buying homes and cars, retirement planning, vacationing/recreation, and living expenses.

Perhaps then make them wait a short period of time before they can then "sign" that yes they do understand and that they still want to pursue a degree with loans. Kids that young (17-19) don't really have any good grasp on the finances and their parents might be blinded by hope.

Perhaps that "finance" seminar wouldn't help but it might at least get them to re-think their secondary education options.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#130

Post by salvar »

bluGill wrote: post #32
ericb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be. On one level, I totally agree. At the same time, well-meaning attempts to make college loans available to everyone for everything seem to have massively bloated the cost of education to a crippling degree. I think the key is in the how of the approach.

That is the problem with politics: the unintended effects are always an issue. Of course everything else has this issue as well. The only difference is most of us start small, and if it works we expand. You can't do that easily for national programs.

> You can't do that easily for national programs.

Is this American exceptionalism? Many nations do this, with great results.

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