Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics • Hacker News Board

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#131

Post by pwm » Thu, May 17, 2018, 9:58 AM UTC

Lewton wrote: post #116

taneq wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this very interesting because I had precisely the opposite reaction once when I tried psylocibin. Despite being pretty solidly materialist and agnostic, I'd always held a bit of a soft spot for Cartesian duelism and a bit of a "but it'd be cool if..." What I didn't expect was that the effects wouldn't just "feel real" or "be convincing", they were real. Subjectively, it wasn't inside my head, it was the actual…

LSD made me go from your run of the mill nihilist to being convinced that even consciousness is a complete illusion and all philosophy is built on this ridiculous lie. It's like solipsism taken one step further, no I'm not the only thing that exists because -I- don't really exist in any meaningful way either. We're all just P-zombies. Qualia is nonsense If you thought relating to normal people as a nihilist was hard.…

As you've profoundly experienced all things change... ;)

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#132

Post by Lewton » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:03 AM UTC

alexmat wrote: post #128

Lewton wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LSD made me go from your run of the mill nihilist to being convinced that even consciousness is a complete illusion and all philosophy is built on this ridiculous lie. It's like solipsism taken one step further, no I'm not the only thing that exists because -I- don't really exist in any meaningful way either. We're all just P-zombies. Qualia is nonsense If you thought relating to normal people as a nihilist was hard.…

Post-solopsism? Fck me dude, I mean say want you will about nihilism, at least it doesn't attempt to invalidate the experience of qualia.

It's just materialism taken to its logical conclusion. We're just a bunch of atoms bumping into each other in a way that fools ourselves into believing that we're a cohesive entity.

Ever been tired and run on autopilot? Our experience of ourselves vary in strength all the time. If I'm really really honest with myself, I don't actually have the experience of qualia all the time

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#133

Post by pwm » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:07 AM UTC

bfuller wrote: post #103

heracles wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you see it as a indication of the opposite of what we typically call God? That instead of there being an external entity outside our universe interacting with you, you talked to something God-like inside yourself. This might be what you share with every person in history that ever have received divine inspiration. That same experience motivated them. Just like we can share experience with other people when we a…

This person was unwilling or unable to assimilate their experience and now they are blaming LSD. Funny enough, if he kept taking LSD and exploring his spirituality he could deal with the feelings of believing in science but being shaken by the possibility of the supernatural. That's actually pretty straightforward. But he is choosing to close the book on it, and now is blaming the drug when really its himself. An act…

While I agree, please realise that your approach is really not helpful! We don't tell someone who just fell off the bike and afraid of sitting back that "if you've just sat back you'd now be riding, hair in the wind". This only alienates people.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#134

Post by gepi79 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:14 AM UTC

collyw wrote: post #114

Jedi72 wrote: post #13

Im a stable, sane, not depressed or anything person. I once took LSD (mixed with other things aswell...) and had a trip during which I spoke to God, Satan and various other imaginary beings. It was not a fun experience - I'm a man of science, but the feeling/perception was so real, my entire world view was shattered. It stuck with me for months after. I've gone from someone who 100% believed in evolution and a materi…

Lots of things can potentially destroy healthy minds (relationships for example). According to David Nutts study psylocibin is regarded as one of the least harmful drugs. I have also seen a study showing that use of psychedelics was associated with lower rates of mental health issues later in life. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... Sounds to me like it put a crack in your ego rather than…

Sounds to me like it put a crack in your ego rather than a crack in your sanity.

This is what many so called psychonauts do not understand.

A bad trip can be traumatic and can revive other traumatic experiences.

https://www.verywellmind.com/ptsd-triggers-and-coping-strate...

https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/630i1g/trauma_from_bad...

Psychedelics can lead to decreased wellbeing, decreased psychological and emotional stability and decreased strength and robustness to deal with further stress and unpleasant challenges.

Medical experts use psychedelics because of their strong destabilizing effects.

Nothing is gained and much is lost if this uncomfortable weak unstable state remains.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#135

Post by KozmoNau7 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #107

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short, you're not experiencing the universe. You're experiencing your own mind.

Absolutely. I do think that everyone should try psychedelics at least once, in a comfortable, controlled environment with friends. You may not unlock the secrets to the universe, but I do think it teaches you an important lesson that your reality and experiences are subjective. I don't mean that reality itself is subjective, but our perceptions of it are. LSD will mess with your perceptions in really weird ways that…

I was offered some shrooms a couple of years ago at a metal festival. I was actually a little bit tempted, but I figured the combination of drunkenness and the presence of thousands of strangers meant it would not be a good time nor place to give it a go for the first time.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#136

Post by ssijak » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:38 AM UTC

fapjacks wrote: post #111

ozzmotik wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i highly agree that more people should know about ibogaine but at the same time it is important to note that unless you really know what you're doing or you have an experienced professional administering it, you really shouldn't mess around with it. stuff is serious business and not unknown to be fatal. also, i really wouldn't classify it as a psychedelic, as to my understanding it's more of a dissociative, which whi…

Your post is great and I agree with everything in it, except for suggesting ayahuasca to regular people. Over perhaps the last ten or twelve years I have made ayahuasca for people and sat with them during their trip. I strongly recommend people have experience with another psychedelic before trying DMT (or a brew in which DMT is a component, like ayahuasca). I actually generally won't let someone drink ayahuasca unle…

On every ceremony that I went, at least 1/3 of participants never tried psychedelic before, and there are at least 1-2 persons which never tried anything before, not even marijuana. For some reason, people get drawn to ayahuasca and don't look at it like they look at other substances. Maybe because of the stigma that governments produced against other substances and maybe because ayahuasca ceremony involves shamans.

Anyhow, I have never witnessed problems after the ceremony ended. Yes, it can be really hard and heavy during the ceremony, but after the ceremony ends, everybody feels like they are new and like they never felt that good before. And in after effects of the next several weeks, everybody reports positive and lasting effects.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#137

Post by spiralx » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:43 AM UTC

Numberwang wrote: post #85

Pimpus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to believe intentionally screwing with it's functioning would somehow increase it's ability to perceive the world truthfully. Right, my point is that psychedelics are great for exposing falsehood in your thinking, but not necessarily uncovering truth. > The 'most rational' position lies somewhere in that continuum. When converting to the usual trinary labels, one extreme or the other may end up b…

“Either the moon is made of cheese or it isn’t” is not a personal belief that should impress anyone.

"I don't have enough knowledge to make a judgement of whether the moon is made of cheese" is a perfectly valid statement. And if you base your personal beliefs on whether they'll impress other people, then I suspect you're making your own life harder for yourself than it needs to be.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#138

Post by spiralx » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:44 AM UTC

axiom92 wrote: post #74

Pimpus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've gone from someone who 100% believed in evolution and a material universe, to someone who deep down thinks there may be a God, and I may actually have to face some kind of hell for some kind of sins I may unknowingly commit in this life. Well, it sounds like you went from being an atheist to an agnostic. That certainly is a more rational and less dogmatic position to take, based on what we know. As for the Hell…

>Well, it sounds like you went from being an atheist to an agnostic. That certainly is a more rational and less dogmatic position to take, based on what we know. What we know is that there is absolutely no proof that God exists. With that being the case, I don't see why being an atheist is not the most rational position to take. Can I win a $100 million lottery someday? Sure. Should I be living my life believing that…

> With that being the case, I don't see why being an atheist is not the most rational position to take.

Because the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#139

Post by enkephalin » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:49 AM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #129

enkephalin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, technically the only thing stopping the medical world from calling a very religious person delusional, is the fact that religious people are specifically exempt from receiving that diagnosis, for no medical reason whatsoever.

I very highly doubt that is the only thing. Belief in religion is a normal part of the human experience, even though the beliefs differ and some folks don't have them. These beliefs are generally harmless at best and for some, they help folks have community, a purpose, and all of these other positive things. Sure, some negatives, but that's life. Normalcy plus lack of the belief causing life problems. Doesn't sound l…

yeah, i'm having trouble sourcing my statement, although i definitely read about it in some publication that i can't seem to find now. i was also sure it was part of the official DCM or ICD criteria. hmpf.

Re: Michael Pollan reluctantly embraces the 'new science' of psychedelics

#140

Post by spiralx » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:53 AM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #10

When he talks about the default mode network that sort of matches with my intuitive understanding of what the experience of taking psychedelics is like. People do things in loops— they go to work every day, come back home every day, hang out with the same people, engage in the same hobbies, think the same thoughts. It’s just our natural mode of being to repeat ourselves, and psychedelics seem to just shut all of that…

> People do things in loops— they go to work every day, come back home every day, hang out with the same people, engage in the same hobbies, think the same thoughts.

And bad trips are people stuck in a loop, unable to break out. Which is why the best thing you can do with someone is change their set and setting - move them elsewhere, not take it too seriously, remind them it's just drugs and will be over soon, get them to do something else etc.