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NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

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Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#141

Post by acct1771 »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #111
function_seven wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement. Was the lack of big-ass engine in the front an advantage for them? Seems like the empty frunk (and low center of mass?) allows for some engineering that can't be done in a conventional ICE car.

I'm curious about this statement as well. Do we have any data that shows a Tesla is any better than a roughly comparable (size, weight, cost) brand new ICE car? Say a Lexus GS or a BMW 7 series? They do love to point out they are safer than the NTSB average, but it would be kind of apalling if their cars were not safer than a 10 year old Toyota Corolla (approximately the average car).

The average is not of the average car, I'm presuming.

It's the current average score across today's cars.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#142

Post by dallbee »

jessaustin wrote: post #8
kingkongjaffa wrote: post #3

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helm…

Yes that is definitely better. With better materials engineering one could imagine an "active" material that crumpled and then "uncrumpled" itself. Perhaps the uncrumpling would require electric power?

There's research being done with piezo-electrics to achieve this.

Pretty neat stuff.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#143

Post by bonesss »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #131
pipio21 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concussions are accumulative and most of them are not macro evident. Lots of micro concussions could be worse than a single big one. So I do not think your data means what you believe it means. There is a reason they call NFL "Not For Long". I would not let my children play either American football or rugby, existing options like basketball or tennis. Luckily most of the world plays soccer.

Why do you believe soccer is actually any safer?

> Ronksley examined the relative concussion risk for some of the most popular youth sports: American football, rugby, hockey, lacrosse, soccer, basketball, baseball, softball, wrestling, field hockey, track, taekwondo, volleyball and cheerleading. Altogether, they reviewed data from 23 previously published studies on concussions in these sports, and then did a pooled analysis of injury rates from 13 of the prior studies.

> For each of the sports, they looked at concussion rates based on minutes of athletic exposure (AE), which includes competitions or practices with the potential for injury. The overall concussion risk across all of the sports included in the analysis was 0.23 injuries per 1,000 AEs. By comparison, the concussion risk per 1,000 AEs for rugby was 4.18, while it was 1.2 for hockey and 0.53 for American football.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-concussion-youth-s...

So on the one hand: research.

On the other hand: soccer (especially with sense enough not to be hitting headers all the time), has stupendously less physical contact than rugby or "football"... how could it be more damaging/dangerous with less contact?

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#144

Post by marliechiller »

kodablah wrote: post #96
Twirrim wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Rugby has a lower incident rate of concussion, and it's more the outcome of accidents than as a direct aspect of the tackling. That said, it's a very different style of play in Rugby to American Football. Rugby players just don't deliberately go in with their head for the tackle, which is something you often see with NFL players (some NFL teams have experimented with helmet free tackling practice…

I see them lowering their heads into rucks or tackles. While there are fewer hits of course (in football, obstruction/blocking is encouraged off the ball) I think, anecdotally based on watching a lot of both, that rugby players and trainers don't account for concussion incidents as well. You see in both NFL and rugby league/union players shrugging off trainers attempting to take them out of a game, but I feel like I…

rugby has recently introduced a rule whereby there is a pitch-side doctor who will investigate replays of collisions where a concussion is suspected to have occurred. players are then removed from play for a mandatory 10 minute risk assessment which, if failed, means they cant return to play. quite a sensible move which should definitely be explored further and removes some of the burden of being a tough guy and playing through it

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#145

Post by rkangel »

jacobsenscott wrote: post #30
gldalmaso wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several sports than can be dangerous and involve risk of death, like basically all forms of racing, climbing, endurance, etc. As long as practitioners are educated and consenting, I don't see a problem. The problem is if the those responsible for the athletes are not upfront on the risks, or if the athlete is not able to make a proper judgement to consent, like a child.

In all the sports you named - brain injury is not a regular part of the sport - it happens when something goes wrong. In football players suffer mild traumatic brain injury in every game, as a regular part of game play.

While this seems to be the likely scenario, this isn't actually known for sure yet. We know that every concussion causes cumulative damage, but it is unclear what level of sub-concussive hit causes cumulative damage? It's almost certainly not 'none', but we don't know whether it's a light tap, or an almost concussive hit. For example, it could be that concussion is a red herring and certain angles and acceleration profiles are the issue and these don't correlate at all with concussion.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#146

Post by [deleted] »

save_ferris wrote: post #35
kingkongjaffa wrote: post #3

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helm…

The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet every play or two. One possible answer is that, in order to truly solve this problem, the sport must do away with facemasks or helmets altogether. Mike Ditka has long proposed removing the facemask, claiming that it has encouraged players to weaponize their heads…

[deleted]

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#147

Post by animal531 »

kodablah wrote: post #96
Twirrim wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Rugby has a lower incident rate of concussion, and it's more the outcome of accidents than as a direct aspect of the tackling. That said, it's a very different style of play in Rugby to American Football. Rugby players just don't deliberately go in with their head for the tackle, which is something you often see with NFL players (some NFL teams have experimented with helmet free tackling practice…

I see them lowering their heads into rucks or tackles. While there are fewer hits of course (in football, obstruction/blocking is encouraged off the ball) I think, anecdotally based on watching a lot of both, that rugby players and trainers don't account for concussion incidents as well. You see in both NFL and rugby league/union players shrugging off trainers attempting to take them out of a game, but I feel like I…

There are concussions in rugby, but they're much rarer. There are many rules protecting players, such as not being allowed to go in with the head or shoulders (you must tackle with your arms). You're not allowed to lift players off the ground, or tackle them around either their necks or heads.

On occasion players will still land badly or be tackled by multiple opponents. Studies are a bit rarer, but older players doesn't seem to nearly have the same level of issues as players from the NFL.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#148

Post by dingaling »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #111
function_seven wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement. Was the lack of big-ass engine in the front an advantage for them? Seems like the empty frunk (and low center of mass?) allows for some engineering that can't be done in a conventional ICE car.

I'm curious about this statement as well. Do we have any data that shows a Tesla is any better than a roughly comparable (size, weight, cost) brand new ICE car? Say a Lexus GS or a BMW 7 series? They do love to point out they are safer than the NTSB average, but it would be kind of apalling if their cars were not safer than a 10 year old Toyota Corolla (approximately the average car).

The Euro NCAP ratings gave the Model-S approximately the same rating as the Maserati Quattroporte which is similar in size and shape.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#149

Post by dingaling »

soperj wrote: post #137
privacypoller wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are risks in all these activities, the problem with full-contact football, or hockey & lacrosse is that there is no way to be educated and consenting for an aspect that is inherent to the very nature of the activity, especially if you're a kid. Up in Canada the pro-contact hockey crowd loves to talk about "teaching kids how to hit properly" which I'd suspect is a similar attitude to those coaching 5-yr-old…

you don't even start contact in hockey until your teens. Hitting properly means using your shoulders and hitting the player in the shoulders or chest.

Specifically ice hockey, I assume?

Field hockey ( just called hockey in Europe ) doesn't involve bodily contact.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#150

Post by jamiek88 »

Pxtl wrote: post #110
kingkongjaffa wrote: post #3

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helm…

Alternately (although this would really change the sport) you could look at moving away from mounting the head-protection on the head. Instead you mount a cage on the chest and shoulder pads - like a spinal recovery halo brace without the skull drills. A wearable rollcage. It would look absurd and reduce their mobility, but it would shift the impacts from the head to the torso.

Like the HANS device in F1?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

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