NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models • Hacker News Board

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#21

Post by Someone1234 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

drunner wrote: post #12

mikestew wrote: post #5

Summarizing: "Because this activity is so dangerous, and results in many head injuries, we've spent $60 million developing a framework for manufacturers to make helmets that will mitigate the injuries from the this entirely voluntary activity." Umm, has anyone considered just not doing this activity? I don't mean to be trite, but that's what it looks like from the perspective of one who has little interest in footbal…

You aren't going to get the activity of football to go away even if it is risky and bad idea for ones health. Just look at all the dumb stuff our country does already. To pose a different question, I always wonder if this is the wrong direction. Why not remove the helmets altogether? Or go back to the leather ones? Has their been any comparative studies from head injuries back before the plastic shell was introduced?…

> You aren't going to get the activity of football to go away even if it is risky and bad idea for ones health.

It will never go away completely but it is already shrinking:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-footbal...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-tackle-footba...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/sports/football/tackle-fo...

The younger you get the larger the loss in popularity. Contrast that against "soccer" (football) which has gained in popularity over the same period:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/shane-paul-neil/soccer-is-her...

And basketball has also been surging in popularity:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/dec/12/nba-surpassed-...

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#22

Post by gldalmaso » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #10

Only thing safer helmets will do is encourage players to hit harder and harder, until someone really gets killed. I hope one day I will get to see the end of football. Why would any parent enroll their child in this sport?

There are several sports than can be dangerous and involve risk of death, like basically all forms of racing, climbing, endurance, etc. As long as practitioners are educated and consenting, I don't see a problem.

The problem is if the those responsible for the athletes are not upfront on the risks, or if the athlete is not able to make a proper judgement to consent, like a child.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#23

Post by komali2 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:23 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #5

Summarizing: "Because this activity is so dangerous, and results in many head injuries, we've spent $60 million developing a framework for manufacturers to make helmets that will mitigate the injuries from the this entirely voluntary activity." Umm, has anyone considered just not doing this activity? I don't mean to be trite, but that's what it looks like from the perspective of one who has little interest in footbal…

>no one is paying millions in broadcasting rights to that people can watch me ride a motorcycle

I feel like you must be aware of the professional racing scene and have just momentarily forgotten? It's a massive industry and it's driven the majority of advancements in street-bike technology.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#24

Post by asmithmd1 » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

Not only does the company that developed the models retain all ownership, they attach a kind of viral ownership to anything developed using them:

"if you develop an Improvement based on or utilizing the Content, and you ...agree that you will not assert any claim, including any claim of infringement, against Biocore for our use of any Improvement"

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#25

Post by tfandango » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:26 PM UTC

drunner wrote: post #12

mikestew wrote: post #5

Summarizing: "Because this activity is so dangerous, and results in many head injuries, we've spent $60 million developing a framework for manufacturers to make helmets that will mitigate the injuries from the this entirely voluntary activity." Umm, has anyone considered just not doing this activity? I don't mean to be trite, but that's what it looks like from the perspective of one who has little interest in footbal…

You aren't going to get the activity of football to go away even if it is risky and bad idea for ones health. Just look at all the dumb stuff our country does already. To pose a different question, I always wonder if this is the wrong direction. Why not remove the helmets altogether? Or go back to the leather ones? Has their been any comparative studies from head injuries back before the plastic shell was introduced?…

I have paid for season tickets to college football for the past 18 years. Recently I've been reading more and more about this problem and I feel guilty for contributing to injury of players, willful participants or not. I'm considering not renewing and not watching, and I think we'll see the end of football (as we know it anyway) in our time.

However I do find the strategy and team aspect of the game compelling. I wonder if it's possible to take the violence out and retain the tactical/athletic aspects that make it interesting to watch.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#26

Post by function_seven » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

kingkongjaffa wrote: post #3

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helm…

> That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement.

Was the lack of big-ass engine in the front an advantage for them? Seems like the empty frunk (and low center of mass?) allows for some engineering that can't be done in a conventional ICE car.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#27

Post by Cerium » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

gldalmaso wrote: post #22

matte_black wrote: post #10

Only thing safer helmets will do is encourage players to hit harder and harder, until someone really gets killed. I hope one day I will get to see the end of football. Why would any parent enroll their child in this sport?

There are several sports than can be dangerous and involve risk of death, like basically all forms of racing, climbing, endurance, etc. As long as practitioners are educated and consenting, I don't see a problem. The problem is if the those responsible for the athletes are not upfront on the risks, or if the athlete is not able to make a proper judgement to consent, like a child.

The problem with sports like football is that they are an accumulative damage sport as opposed to a safe until accident sport.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#28

Post by jwagenet » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

Fenrisulfr wrote: post #16

jitl wrote: post #2

For those wondering what a finite element model is: > FE models are computational tools developed by breaking an object down into simpler parts (finite elements) and assembling them into a larger system of equations to model an entire structure—this facilitates the efficient analysis of design changes to that structure. FE models have been used to improve designs in many engineered products, including those in the ae…

So they used mechanical engineering techniques you would learn junior year or earlier. I'm sure they used FEA on earlier helmets as well. This just sounds fancier. The next version is probably going to be called the DiffEq models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_element_method

These FE models are almost certainly much more complicated than those tested in a junior year course. Anyone rig up a simulation and get some sort of result, but to get an accurate simulation result for a complex system like this requires thoughtful constraints, assumptions, and, as others mentioned, accurate material representations, among other things. FEA is a powerful tool, but much more complicated than providing a mesh and hitting go.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#29

Post by tfandango » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #21

drunner wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't going to get the activity of football to go away even if it is risky and bad idea for ones health. Just look at all the dumb stuff our country does already. To pose a different question, I always wonder if this is the wrong direction. Why not remove the helmets altogether? Or go back to the leather ones? Has their been any comparative studies from head injuries back before the plastic shell was introduced?…

> You aren't going to get the activity of football to go away even if it is risky and bad idea for ones health. It will never go away completely but it is already shrinking: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-footbal... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-tackle-footba... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/sports/football/tackle-fo... The younger you get the larger the loss in popularity.…

I live in a town that lives and breaths college football and this trend is very visible in the youth and HS level sports. Soccer is extremely popular.

Re: NFL Releases Finite Element Helmet Models

#30

Post by jacobsenscott » Tue, May 15, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

gldalmaso wrote: post #22

matte_black wrote: post #10

Only thing safer helmets will do is encourage players to hit harder and harder, until someone really gets killed. I hope one day I will get to see the end of football. Why would any parent enroll their child in this sport?

There are several sports than can be dangerous and involve risk of death, like basically all forms of racing, climbing, endurance, etc. As long as practitioners are educated and consenting, I don't see a problem. The problem is if the those responsible for the athletes are not upfront on the risks, or if the athlete is not able to make a proper judgement to consent, like a child.

In all the sports you named - brain injury is not a regular part of the sport - it happens when something goes wrong. In football players suffer mild traumatic brain injury in every game, as a regular part of game play.