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The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

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Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#311

Post by s73v3r_ »

smokeyj wrote: post #217
21 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least if the current "1%" hoard dollars or euros in their mattress they slowly lose their wealth thanks to inflation. Long story short, they don't.

Not only that, things you need like energy food and education aren’t included in core inflation. So what happens is, the finance people use freshly printed money to buy up the things all the poor little people need. But let’s not call it speculation. Crypto is a democratizing force in a corrupt and unaccountable world.

"Crypto is a democratizing force in a corrupt and unaccountable world."

People say this all the time without backing it up. Tell us, exactly how is that true? What is the exact feature of BTC that somehow makes it incorruptible, and changes millenia of human behavior? What exactly about BTC would prevent the wealthy people from buying up all the things the poor little people need?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#312

Post by gamblor956 »

ryanmonroe wrote: post #261
acdha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investments need to have intrinsic value. Under the new spin that bitcoin isn’t intended to be a currency, it makes little sense as an investment because there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers. If nobody is using it except for speculation, where’s the incentive to pay to keep that network running?

> Investments need to have intrinsic value. > there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers What is the "intrinsic value" in e.g. an iPhone? Would that value exist without humans? I would say no, it only has value because people are willing to pay for it. So I'm left wondering what principled distinction you can draw between a particular set of random numbers and a particular arrangement of metal and glass…

Intrinsic value is a value that derives from the use of properties of the thing. It's not a derived value that requires the imposition of an additional layer of context to make the property valuable.

The iPhone, or any other phone, has the intrinsic value of being usable as a computing device, entertainment device, communications device, camera, thrown weapon, etc. If you want to be pedantic about it, the components that make up the iPhone have the intrinsic values of being usable for one or more of the above functions, and the materials that go into those components have the intrinsic value of being usable in industrial/commercial products or processes.

A bitcoin literally has no use inherent use on its own. It's simply a number. The exchange of these numbers has no intrinsic value, it would be like me and Adam exchanging a 2 and a 3 (not dollars or anything other units, literally just the numbers). Any value from the exchange is an additional layer of context imposed by me and Adam on the transaction--it's not intrinsic to the bitcoin itself.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#313

Post by gamblor956 »

hisabness wrote: post #197
blueprint wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the distinction between an investment and a speculative position, but know that the value is in the confirmations of old transactions piled up which make it extremely difficult to retroactively mutate the ledger. Lots of people don't understand that well yet.

i think the value is also the ability to transfer value relatively quickly without having to sit at a bank for 30 minutes to do so.

I can transfer value within seconds using Zelle, Venmo, Paypal, Square, etc., for free right where I'm sitting now. Nowhere near a bank.

AFAIK, Bitcoin takes a minimum of 10 minutes assuming that I wish to pay the going transaction fee, or as long as 3 days (or even never!!!) if I use a de minimis fee. And that's assuming a significant risk that the value of the value transferred will not have the same value by the time the transaction actually goes through.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#314

Post by s73v3r_ »

cpplinuxdude wrote: post #270
kajumix wrote: post #127

The word 'hoarding' demonizes 'saving,' which in most Keynesian economies is considered leakage. It's really a question of values. Inflationary currencies encourage consumption; deflationary ones encourage savings. High consumption does increase demand, and apparently a faster growth in the economy. One could argue that this almost forced consumption for the sake of faster economic growth is what causes malinvestment…

I don't really get why when it comes to crypto energy consumption, the discussion board becomes reactionary. I mean portugal is now running on 100% renewables. Shouldn't this point be more about renewables? You know, what about the electric car? That'll consume lots of energy too.

The electric car has a use for most people, though. If you don't think BTC is worthwhile, then the energy spent on it is wasted.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#315

Post by UncleMeat »

mkirklions wrote: post #65
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because - and everyone but the uninformed or idealists know this - it's an investment product. It's simply not suitable as a currency, because one, inflation / instability, and two, it can only do what, a dozen transactions a second, if that? That's not nearly enough to become a viable currency.

Speak for yourself. I use bitcoin all the time for payments. Peer to peer using coinbase(email) for free and instant to friends. Shift card for free and instant at merchants. Bitcoin is beyond blockchain, companies have built products to trade BTC instantly, free, using the infrastructure already existing. The transaction time 'problem' doesnt really exist if you are into crypto, you know how to use it. And I dont tr…

Okay. I make like maybe ten payments to friends per year. Not exactly a killer app.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#316

Post by ericb »

spookthesunset wrote: post #167
mkirklions wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I feel like bitcoin people live in some kind of alternate reality that I simply don't understand. I can tell. You seem to think Bitcoin is another inflationary currency. The excitement is that, Donald Trump doesnt have control over Bitcoin. China doesnt have control over bitcoin. No government does. People with computers have control over it. There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. No amount of awful government…

> There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. Provably false. Bitcoin has been forked into multiple chains numerous time, creating many more then 21 million tokens. Given that there is no trademark on the term "Bitcoin", some of these forks can rightfully claim themselves to be The True Bitcoin. In addition, there are thousands of other non-forked blockchains that are nearly identical to bitcoin, save for a few mino…

> Provably false. Bitcoin has been forked into multiple chains numerous time, creating many more then 21 million tokens.

This is absurd. You could say the same for the dollar and the canadian dollar. You seem to think a new currency devalues every other currency.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#317

Post by UncleMeat »

hisabness wrote: post #224
spookthesunset wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. Provably false. Bitcoin has been forked into multiple chains numerous time, creating many more then 21 million tokens. Given that there is no trademark on the term "Bitcoin", some of these forks can rightfully claim themselves to be The True Bitcoin. In addition, there are thousands of other non-forked blockchains that are nearly identical to bitcoin, save for a few mino…

i think you're arguing semantics. if most people dont view the forked chain as valid and prefer the original, then a new bitcoin isn't created per se.

That's why BTC's value went down when BCH forked, right? Even a moderately successful fork will hurt BTC's value.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#318

Post by chriswarbo »

mkirklions wrote: post #131
pwinnski wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question answers itself: they weren't. It also beggars belief that they were regularly spending bitcoins that was shifting in value by hundreds of USD in a matter of hours. The would be irrational to the point of lunacy if true, but I don't believe it is.

What is the crazy part? I bought BTC at 200, 400, 800, 1200, 3000, 11,000, and 7,000. I like BTC wayyy better than USD. If I need to spend 2$ at taco bell, I'll just use my bitcoin.

> If I need to spend 2$ at taco bell, I'll just use my bitcoin.

The currency you're using is USD, since that's how Taco Bell set their prices and it's how you're measuring the value of your bitcoins (via the exchange rate).

I've yet to see any business set their prices in bitcoin. Everyone accepting bitcoin payment is setting their prices in fiat currency (e.g. $2), and accepting an equivalent amount of bitcoin (based on market rates); i.e. treating bitcoin as a payment gateway rather than a currency.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#319

Post by frockington »

mr_spothawk wrote: post #154
misja111 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's a huge difference. With old fashioned "savings", the money was in a bank, which in turn would use it to invest it elsewhere. In other words, the money would still circulate in the economy. On the other hand, these bitcoins that are hoarded in a bunker are extracted from the economy as long as they are there. The implications are big: with the current trend of concentrating wealth to only a small fraction…

today's market cap for BTC is around 158 Billion$. so we're talking about something around 7% of the world supply, "locked in an underground bunker". What's not clear to me: is this just the keys stored underground and clients have access? or is this "cold storage"? I'd speculate that more than 7% of the world's gold is locked up in bunkers, where it can be accounted for and borrowed against. Nobody is shocked to kno…

Nobody is shocked because at least gold has a historical value and won't dissappear. When the a-bombs start dropping, nobody is going to want a piece of steel with an engraved bitcoin wallet key

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#320

Post by gamblor956 »

realusername wrote: post #195
gwbas1c wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is a fiat currency. It's backed by nothing. Encryption keys, and bits on a disk, have absolutely no value whatsoever.

Traditional currency isn't backed by anything but its usage as well.

Traditional currency is backed by the requirement that it be used in transactions conducted with the issuing government, and also by the requirement that it be accepted as a method of payment for all debts under the jurisdiction of that government.
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