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The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

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Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#261

Post by ryanmonroe »

acdha wrote: post #46
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because - and everyone but the uninformed or idealists know this - it's an investment product. It's simply not suitable as a currency, because one, inflation / instability, and two, it can only do what, a dozen transactions a second, if that? That's not nearly enough to become a viable currency.

Investments need to have intrinsic value. Under the new spin that bitcoin isn’t intended to be a currency, it makes little sense as an investment because there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers. If nobody is using it except for speculation, where’s the incentive to pay to keep that network running?

> Investments need to have intrinsic value.

> there’s no value in any particular set of random numbers

What is the "intrinsic value" in e.g. an iPhone? Would that value exist without humans? I would say no, it only has value because people are willing to pay for it. So I'm left wondering what principled distinction you can draw between a particular set of random numbers and a particular arrangement of metal and glass, both of which people want, to determine that one has intrinsic value and one does not.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#262

Post by acdha »

blueprint wrote: post #249
acdha wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much value does that really add? Traditional banking doesn’t have many problems with that and it’s moot for most people because the bank has to honor commitments even if they make an error.

I guess if you don't understand the problem behind decentralization you can say stuff like that...

Why don’t you demonstrate some of that alleged understanding to answer the question? Start by producing evidence supporting your belief that there is some significant problem with transaction history modification and move on to why that problem cannot be more efficiently addressed using proven cost-effective techniques.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#263

Post by ataturk »

simias wrote: post #17

>the global currency of the future, that they need to buy some, and that he’s the man to safeguard it. Looks like in the future people hoard currency instead of spending and investing it then. That ought to be interesting. It also demonstrates the costs associated with non-reversible transactions, these vaults aren't storing gold ingots or priceless artifacts, just private keys. Banks around the world don't need to w…

Let's do this little thought experiment: If some wealthy people stored their keys on a ship and that ship sunk to the bottom of the Atlantic, would anyone go diving there to retrieve those keys in say 50 years? What if it was gold on the ship?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#264

Post by dota_fanatic »

unit91 wrote: post #118
dota_fanatic wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person has 250 units of food sitting in a room, earns them at 2 units per day, and can consume them at 1 unit per day. They have saved 250 units such that if they stopped earning, they'll be alright. Another person has 2,500,000,000 units of food sitting in a room, earns them at 200,000 units per day, and can consume them at 100 units per day (not as filling but tastier let's say). They are... also only saving? C'm…

The problem with this line of thinking is it assumes a specific purpose, then name-calls based on that premise. Maybe consumption isn't the goal and you're unaware of it. If I have as much food as a grocery store, I'm a hoarder because consumption is my goal. The grocery store isn't hoarding (or even saving) food because consumption isn't the goal. Retail sales are the goal. Again, I'm not here to fight about economi…

Degree matters, it often makes all the difference; as such, we have different adjectives to describe those different degrees.

In my hypothetical, while technically true that both are "saving", it is more descriptive to use "hoarding" for the latter case, both in an objective sense to describe the degree and in a subjective sense to describe how that degree of storage should be evaluated.

Their goal is to save obscene amounts of wealth that will never ever be used, could never ever be used by a single person in a natural lifetime, "I've saved so much WAOW!" Who cares. Wealth is gained on the shoulders of giants, all the people and technology that came before us. Maybe it should be harder, much harder for people to save levels of money that most everyone would describe as hoarding.

The wealthy saving/hoarding so much money, having so much power relative to the masses is leading to super great outcomes?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#265

Post by zrobotics »

mkirklions wrote: post #149
spookthesunset wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is beyond blockchain, companies have built products to trade BTC instantly, free, using the infrastructure already existing If bitcoin is "beyond blockchain", than what is it? Just a table of transactions in a Real Database™? If yes, whats the point? You've just layered a very bank-sounding, very-centralized construct on top of your space-age "trustless" decentralized blockchain. How is it at all revolution…

>I feel like bitcoin people live in some kind of alternate reality that I simply don't understand. I can tell. You seem to think Bitcoin is another inflationary currency. The excitement is that, Donald Trump doesnt have control over Bitcoin. China doesnt have control over bitcoin. No government does. People with computers have control over it. There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. No amount of awful government…

"The excitement is that, Donald Trump doesnt have control over Bitcoin. China doesnt have control over bitcoin. No government does. People with computers have control over it. There are 21,000,000 Bitcoin ever ever ever. No amount of awful government can change that."

What I don't understand is how you think your are insulated with bitcoin. If Trump does something so catastrophically stupid that USD is worthless, what will be the effects on the worldwide economy? How will bitcoin insulate you from something like the 07 recession, it won't make finding a job easier. At least the gold peppers can claim there is some value left in gold in a hypothetical nuclear post apocalypse, BTC instantly becomes worthless without widespread internet access. Without network access, what value is in a blockchain?

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#266

Post by acdha »

mkirklions wrote: post #245
acdha wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin can be sent for free using exchanges or on a piece of paper or about 1000 other ways. What about the transaction fees? Someone has to pay for all of the mining hardware and electricity.

You dont need to use on-chain for bitcoin transactions.

So we’re back to using a federated model with most people using trusted third parties and hoping there are enough laws and regulatory oversight to prevent them from abusing that trust? This sounds oddly familiar…

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#267

Post by logfromblammo »

mkirklions wrote: post #74
Balero wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has no inflation, there are only a given number of total bitcoins in existence, which many (myself included) would argue makes it a poor currency.

> there are only a given number of total bitcoins in existence, which many (myself included) would argue makes it a poor currency. I have always question who says this. What makes you think deflation would be bad? My conspiracy is that governments require inflation to print themselves out of bad policy. Without government abilities to do this, the government performs poorly. Common citizens do not lose 2-4% of their…

Add this to your conspiracy.

Intentional monetary inflation creates a value gradient, wherein the first spend of a new dollar can buy more than the second spend, and so on, until the knowledge that the new dollar is in circulation has normalized.

Now, what happens when you always spend new dollars into circulation through the same entity, but then remove old dollars at the same rate from those who only acquire dollars after they have been value-normalized? If you are an entity that can create new money, and destroy old money, you effectively get a discount on everything you buy. To a lesser extent, the same applies to anyone that can hoard a large enough quantity of money. You can withdraw a quantity from circulation, wait for prices to normalize for the new money supply, then buy at a lower price from hoarded money until people realize the circulating supply is now larger and raise their prices.

The counter to this is to restrict fiat money creation and discourage hoarding. Bitcoin already has a fixed-in-stone schedule for the creation of its money supply, but there is no way to stop someone from accumulating a large quantity, and then using the size of that hoard to act like a central bank.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#268

Post by aje403 »

spookthesunset wrote: post #151
aje403 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an investment product, it's a ponzi scheme

> it's a ponzi scheme The beauty of Bitcoin and the whole crypto "space" is that they are more than just mere ponzi schemes. Don't let the pedants get to you--the crypto space transcends the entire gamut of frauds, scams and schemes. They're not only ponzi schemes but pyramid schemes, MLM scams, a pump & dump scams, exit scams, exchange scams, securities fraud, and a bunch of other named and unnamed scams you'd find…

Let's translate your spiel into English: "I, spookthesunset, am invested in bitcoin"

You're right though, it is more than just a mere ponzi scheme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_gro...

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#269

Post by simias »

21 wrote: post #203
simias wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a tiny portion of the population is a huge problem today, but don't deflationary cryptocurrencies make it objectively worse? At least if the current "1%" hoard dollars or euros in their mattress they slowly lose their wealth thanks to inflation. After a generation or two they'll have lost a significant share of their treasure. Therefore they…

> At least if the current "1%" hoard dollars or euros in their mattress they slowly lose their wealth thanks to inflation. Long story short, they don't.

I really need to hear the long story.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#270

Post by cpplinuxdude »

kajumix wrote: post #127

The word 'hoarding' demonizes 'saving,' which in most Keynesian economies is considered leakage. It's really a question of values. Inflationary currencies encourage consumption; deflationary ones encourage savings. High consumption does increase demand, and apparently a faster growth in the economy. One could argue that this almost forced consumption for the sake of faster economic growth is what causes malinvestment…

I don't really get why when it comes to crypto energy consumption, the discussion board becomes reactionary. I mean portugal is now running on 100% renewables. Shouldn't this point be more about renewables? You know, what about the electric car? That'll consume lots of energy too.
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