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The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

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Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#241

Post by anonuser123456 »

acdha wrote: post #202
anonuser123456 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If contracts are written and priced in BTC, then it will behave like a commodity. Since supply is limited, it's value will fluctuate based on demand (e.g. the need to acquire bitcoin to satisfy the contract). I'm not saying this is actually happening, but when/if it does, it will work no differently than other currencies.

Why would anyone choose to do that without some huge advantage to make up for the risks? The only reason seems to be ideological commitment and that doesn’t seem like an especially large market.

I would agree that for the general public there appears to be little upside (currently). For the fantastically wealthy that want to move large amounts of capital outside the purview of the tax man or regulators, it has tremendous upside. The same holds for illicit markets. Because those markets do not exist in isolation, the demand effect will spill over into the broader market (because arbitrage).

I'm not a fan of BTC or cryptocurrency, but I think there is definitely a case that nefarious use could bootstrap it into a real asset.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#242

Post by jel9392mdke »

Spooky23 wrote: post #209
jel9392mdke wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hoard capital now (currency being one form). Look at the result of the tax cuts leading to stock buy backs This is more motivation to transition from currency based societies and focus on outcomes that benefit labor first It’s plain there is no free market when currency monopolists can control not just what we work on looks like, but whether anything is worked on at all There is great demand for the end of war…

No, it’s a motivation to abandon monetary policy focused on eliminating inflation and re-prioritizing employment. The solution to hoarding capital is inflation or direct taxation of asssts.

[dead]

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#243

Post by logfromblammo »

jonknee wrote: post #78
mkirklions wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. I use bitcoin all the time for payments. Peer to peer using coinbase(email) for free and instant to friends. Shift card for free and instant at merchants. Bitcoin is beyond blockchain, companies have built products to trade BTC instantly, free, using the infrastructure already existing. The transaction time 'problem' doesnt really exist if you are into crypto, you know how to use it. And I dont tr…

> Historically Fiat currencies are awful Fiat has ushered in an absolutely amazing period of global growth that has made us unbelievably wealthy. But there is inflation, so why not go with the thing that has no history?

"Us"? Who, exactly, is "us"?

Since around 1980, all the "amazing global growth" has largely gone to those who own and hold financial instruments, while those who make and those who serve have just been treading water all this time.

I can't imagine how unbelievably wealthy I would feel if my class's wages had risen commensurate with increases in productivity, but I certainly don't feel all that rich now.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#244

Post by blackbrokkoli »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #232
blackbrokkoli wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if representative for "bitcoin enthusiasts", but here is how I see it: As the written word spread in Europe after BC, it layed an important cornerstone for democracy and changed the world for good. Noone would argue with that, right? Ok, so let's look at Europe from 500BC-1300BC. Corrupt monks forging official documents, under some goverments up only about 60-80% of the were real. Monks were people of god, s…

Personally, I'd be fine with all that if not for the elephant in the room - the superlinearly growing, unbounded energy upkeep required to support cryptocurrencies. That one single reason alone outweights all the potential benefits you allude to.

This is only true for mining-heave cryptos and is already massively improved in newer projects, but yes, atm it's bad

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#245

Post by mkirklions »

acdha wrote: post #218
mkirklions wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the rules are completely different now because magic. Currency that isnt controlled by any government is different. Previously that was limited to gold only. Gold was hard to move and expensive to keep safe. Bitcoin can be sent for free using exchanges or on a piece of paper or about 1000 other ways. Easy to move gold is almost magic.

> Bitcoin can be sent for free using exchanges or on a piece of paper or about 1000 other ways. What about the transaction fees? Someone has to pay for all of the mining hardware and electricity.

You dont need to use on-chain for bitcoin transactions.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#246

Post by oflannabhra »

oflannabhra wrote: post #116
Kiro wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, if things really go that sideways bitcoin will be the only valuable currency in the world.

In such a scenario, bitcoin will have no value. Localized disasters occur more frequently than one would expect, and in such disasters, a pure barter economy exists. During the Bosnian War, things that became highly valuable were: bullets, liquor, antibiotics, lighters, and of course food [0]. Bitcoin, or any other currency, was the last thing on anyone’s mind. [0] - http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-preparedness/a-s…

I'd also make the comment that the parent was suggesting a world-wide scenario. If such a scenario were localized, Bitcoin would make a lot of sense, assuming migration were a possibility (that is not always the case, as in the Bosnian War). An example of this would be the current situation in Venezuela.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#247

Post by 282883392 »

dragandj wrote: post #213
charlesdm wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that reasoning, investing in gold is also speculation. Because it only has minimal industrial uses and most of its value comes from the fact that people say it has value. And a piece of art is not a productive asset either. Yet, it can and will have value. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with that. I'm happy to invest in things that I believe are likely to go up in value, whether those are compani…

> By that reasoning, investing in gold is also speculation. What else? However, gold has some utility as jewelry etc. Cryptocurrencies are (currently) pure speculation.

Crypto certainly has, if not more, at least the same utility than jewelry. Trust less, distributed ledgers--these aren't tulips.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#248

Post by imtringued »

conanbatt wrote: post #67
chiefalchemist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Looks like in the future people hoard currency instead of spending and investing it then. That ought to be interesting." That sounds like the current to me. Too much is locked up (in too few hands) instead of doing what currency should do. That is, reduce the friction of trade (i.e., goods, skills, etc.) Currency is a lubricant. It's no surprise things are drying up.

A poor village in africa has starvation. They do not produce enough food to feed themeslves properly. So they are given an aid of 10,000 U$S. So they turn to their own farmers and say "Behold the currency, we were dry of it before and we were dry of food because of it. Now take the money and transform it into abundance and plenty!" The farmers put the bills in the ground, right next to the seeds, but it does not make…

Your analogy is flawed because the larger issue is that poor villagers can only buy US products with US dollars which means they import food from the US which then displaces domestic production. This causes even more poverty because of the high percentage of subsistence farmers in africa.

If you really wanted to help them grow their economy then you would try to offshore production into that country which leads to infrastructure investments and productivity growth.

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#249

Post by blueprint »

acdha wrote: post #211
blueprint wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the distinction between an investment and a speculative position, but know that the value is in the confirmations of old transactions piled up which make it extremely difficult to retroactively mutate the ledger. Lots of people don't understand that well yet.

How much value does that really add? Traditional banking doesn’t have many problems with that and it’s moot for most people because the bank has to honor commitments even if they make an error.

I guess if you don't understand the problem behind decentralization you can say stuff like that...

Re: The Wealthy Are Hoarding $10B of Bitcoin in Bunkers

#250

Post by Spooky23 »

daxorid wrote: post #236
Spooky23 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s a motivation to abandon monetary policy focused on eliminating inflation and re-prioritizing employment. The solution to hoarding capital is inflation or direct taxation of asssts.

What? In what world is QE 1,2, and 3, the dramatic and unprecedented expansion of the ECB's balance sheet, and the BOJ and SNB openly buying equities "focused on eliminating inflation"?

When all of that happened, inflation never increased above 5%.

Look at an inflation chart from 1900-today. 1984-today is basically flat. It’s never been less risky to hoard dollars.

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