Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#561

Post by nawitus » Sat, May 05, 2018, 9:01 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #340

m0llusk wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing large swaths on single story single family houses with multiparty rentals does not necessarily involve any high rise buildings. Paris and Barcelona have proven that very high density can be achieved with four to six stories or less.

are you suggesting that Paris is [more] affordable for software engineers? Quick check shows that the prices in Paris are about E10K per square meter - basically SV prices while salaries as far as i know are significantly lower there. I have only vague idea about Barcelona - quick check shows like it may be on the scale of E5K per square meter (it was $100K per 2-3 bdrm 20 years ago, so 3x-4x today seems reasonable)…

What evidence exactly are you looking for? If you compare two different cities with different housing densities, you're not only changing the housing density but (likely) also the value of the housing (since it increases availability of services and so on). It's not possible to magically adjust one variable while not touching the others.

However, if the prices in silicon valley were, say, 30% lower than they are now due to zoning which allowed more housing, would that constitute as evidence? You could still say that the "prices are high, higher density housing doesn't work!" - even if the higher density housing would've decreased prices by non-trivial amounts.

In any case, it's weird to see people objecting to basic supply and demand when it comes to housing.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#562

Post by ralphie02 » Sat, May 05, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

soperj wrote: post #197

wjn0 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird comparison, I guess you say that because California's population (39 million) is close to that of Canada's (36.3 million)? No doubt California is diverse, and by no means homogenous, but Canada... is physically huge, and relatively speaking, very sparsely populated. This naturally leads to more diversity within an already "small" population. To develop a business with a target market of "all of Califor…

Not really. The vast majority of those 35 million live in 3 really small areas. Just like the vast majority of california lives on the coast. California is a physically huge state by the way, that is fairly sparsely populated in big swaths of the state.

As per the comment below, the population between Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal is about a third of the total population (about 12M).

Bit pedantic but this really is a far cry from being the "vast majority" of Canada's population.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#563

Post by jholman » Sat, May 05, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

__erik wrote: post #462

wk_end wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where in Canada did you live and gone to school? I live in the US now, and don't disagree that Americans as a people are more...well, I like the word 'ambitious'. But I think your characterization of Canada is overly harsh: in Toronto and Montreal I know (and love) misfits just as individual, wild, and free as anyone I met during my years in Brooklyn.

Also Canadian (Vancouver / Victoria), spend a lot of time in SF. This has also been my experience but I'm wondering if its just a big city thing in CAD.

As a Vancouverite, I found people less adventurous, less free-thinking, and greedier, in the Valley. Not by a huge margin, but still.

But if you're in it for the money, the 2x salaries can't be beat.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#564

Post by phatfish » Sat, May 05, 2018, 9:40 AM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #393

TulliusCicero wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing in Germany. In the political sense, Germany is more liberal than the US (especially economically), but there's this sort personal conservatism that manifests in paranoia about data/privacy, aversion/skepticism around change and technology and risk, less acceptance of weirdness. German culture just feels...rigid. It's stable and very functional, but also inflexible.

Don't forget the incremental perfectionism, which wont allow for a product to ship, unless its polished to a mirror-shine, and at least a year behind any competitor. And the constant skepticism to anything that is not a physical product. Writing Software in the eye of the layman is something between boring and con-artistry.

To be fair the polished product for physical goods is the better choice. If you buy the rushed appliance with design flaws you will just have to spend money again to replace it, or time to get it returned and fixed.

Software is different in that problems can be fixed instantly (since online updates) and the first to build the user base is often the winner.

The real problems occur when the "software startup" model is applied to a product that it does not fit.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#565

Post by marvin » Sat, May 05, 2018, 9:51 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #427

auchenberg wrote: post #379

Working for Microsoft, and moved to Seattle, WA last year, after having lived in Vancouver, BC for about 1.5 year. I can confirm this trend for several reasons: 1) The pay gap is real. Many get about a 40% pay increase by moving 3 hours down south. It's significant. 2) Taxes are aprox 10% lower in Seattle. Makes a difference too. 3) Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle 4) For a tech worker the h…

> Rent-net-pay-ratio is about the same for Vancouver/Seattle Doesn't that mean that Seattle is the same as Vancouver financially? If so, why not stay in Vancouver?

No, because absent taxes, your disposable income has increased by the same percentage as the increase in salary. Taxes make the increase in disposable income even more pronounced.

This math mistake is the key to the fallacy that a cost-of-living increase zeroes out an increase in salary.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#566

Post by marvin » Sat, May 05, 2018, 10:06 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #349

motohagiography wrote: post #344

There is a peculiar cultural issue where many Canadians think of work as being granted a job as a reward for their virtuousness instead of being part of a market. You can hear it every time someone complains how qualified they are but unhappy with their lot. As though business were some great paternal force that gave out jobs and higher salaries for good behavior. When you view this ostensible sense of fairness as en…

How are the consulting companies legal? From what I've read, it sounds like the workers are really employees.

Same deal in Norway, consulting is huge because businesses want the convenience of firing at will but are not allowed due to employment law. Example scanario:

Salary for an experienced engineer (employed) is $80k.

Salary for a consultant (employed) is $80k. This consultant is hired out to a company that wants his services for $230k usd per year, but the company can now terminate this contract at will.

The consulting company has to pay the employee's salary regardless of whether they have a contract or not. The consulting company sets aside a portion of the $150k/year/employee profit to pay their employees if it's hard to get a new contract, but of course they will lay off their surplus workforce if there is ever an economic crisis. It' a super profitable business when talent is in demand. If demand is unusually high, the consulting companies compete to provide slightly higher salaries, so they do push the median wages up. So at least that's good.

The consulting companies love hiring new grads, because then they get away with paying a $50k salary, but earn the same profit. The clients can't tell the difference!

If you're smart, senior and well-connected, you'll get your own consulting contracts without the middleman, and make $230k/year directly. You do take some more risk; if the market tanks, you'll be laid off immediately instead of with 3-12 months notice. You'll also be the first to go.

As a freelancer, it can be hard to get contracts with the best clients, because they don't want to spend effort hiring recruiters that recognize talent, and hence pick exclusively from the top 10 consulting companies.

So to answer your question: If this setup looks suspiciously like a shady wage fixing scheme, it's because countries with a predomimantly Protestant work ethic like Norway and Canada don't think that's such a big deal. People were born equal, they're supposed to make equal money. (Company owners notwithstanding, now as during the Industrial Revolution). Market efficiencies don't factor into it at all, and you're a right-wing conservative if you suggest otherwise.

I am not joking.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#567

Post by ironjunkie » Sat, May 05, 2018, 10:07 AM UTC

acchow wrote: post #503

_xzxj wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here (who lives outside of Canada but recently did a stint there for a bit) and this will sound negative but f-it. Canadian culture sucks when it comes to trying new things. Canada has some extra safety net but the culture is puritanical and conservative and nobody wants to go out on a limb and try something new and crazy. Not like Americans. Those that do are constantly questioned by everybody. The idea of…

Agree completely. Born and raised in Toronto. Canadians are nice and the diversity is great. But San Francisco was a breath of fresh air I didn't even know I needed until I came here. Toronto feels so rigid in comparison. I don't want to ever leave California.

stay there for long enough and you will start to see the cons also.

There is a lot of pros for moving fast and getting things done, jobwise. Weather also is amazing.

Now for personal life, the older you become, the more I realize that this place (the bay area) is really not the best quality of life you can get. People all think the same way, diversity is only visual, and there is not that much diversity of thought. Everything gravitates around work and tech. People are happy to work a crazy amount of hours and feel cool for doing so.

I loved it for a couple years then started to become bored.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#568

Post by ironjunkie » Sat, May 05, 2018, 10:10 AM UTC

moorhosj wrote: post #323

jgh wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Canada, California benefits from a pool of ~290 million other people who self-select to move there with 0 barriers other than having a few dollars to buy a gray hound ticket.

Is the cost of housing a barrier?

Not really. The cost of housing is huge and a barrier if you are not in tech, But if you move for tech you can definitely find a place and pay the crazy rent with your new salary.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#569

Post by ironjunkie » Sat, May 05, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #465

trhway wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunnyvale (current ground zero of Apple) median is close to 2M - that is only 5x of $400K which a lot of FANG and other engineers pull yearly (and that is the main reason for current SV home prices as, during such low mortgage rates, the market is naturally self-adjusting to 5-6x of prevalent salaries. In 2008 those houses were $700-800K+ - the 5-6x of those $120K-150K salaries back then).

What percentage of FANG employees pull 400k yearly? The ones i know who work there make half that.

I agree. The thing with salaries is that you have a minority that is extremely well paid at FANG companies, and love to brag about it, given a false feeling that everybody is in that range.

A good reminder that nobody brags about being paid 100k in tech,

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#570

Post by adventured » Sat, May 05, 2018, 10:24 AM UTC

SAS721 wrote: post #382

Since when is the whole US tech scene the same as Silicon Valley. All the statistics they showed were Canadians moving to the US in general for tech jobs. I am sure they are not all moving to Silicon Valley. Based on their own statistics seems like they should be going to Austin.

The average programmer salary in the US is $90-$100k.

In Canada it's closer to $50k.

To put that salary into perspective, the median Web developer salary in the US is nearly $70,000 according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can go live in a small'ish third tier US city in states like Iowa or Wisconsin and earn $75,000 per year as an ok Web developer, where houses cost $150-$200k. Or remote from those locations and do even better.

The top 10% of programmers in the US earn over $135k. The median is around $83-$85k. It's likely that the US median programmer pay is at least 2x that of Canada's median.