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How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

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Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#221

Post by panarky »

TheCapn wrote: post #30
panarky wrote: post #26

So what can the salad eater do to be safe? Some pathogens can't be washed off. Others can if you scrub, but not if you rinse. If you buy the whole head, pathogens can hide in the core. And if you buy pre-cut bagged salad, how can you wash that? What if you drench the salad in vinegar before eating it, will that kill E. coli O157:H7?

What I've heard (and I'm only citing unverified word of mouth) is that E.Coli is within the leaf itself, it comes from the water it used. You cannot wash it off or clean it. An infected head of lettuce is garbage.

Ugh.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/011406710037678...

Skip down to the section on "Internalization of bacteria into deeper plant tissues"

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#222

Post by Fomite »

superdaniel wrote: post #215
Fomite wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't treat pre-washed as pre-washed. Wash it again.

This is actually not recommended: And while the C.D.C. recommends washing all produce with water, including heads of lettuce, it does not recommend washing other forms of bagged lettuce, which has already been washed before bagging. “Your chances of contaminating it in your kitchen” — with contaminants that may already be on your kitchen countertop, hands or elsewhere — “are actually higher than if you didn’t wash th…

That's interesting. I get the opposite answer from most of the people I know who work in food-borne infectious diseases.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#223

Post by toasterlovin »

AstralStorm wrote: post #219
toasterlovin wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m using the wrong terminology, I’m certain, but what I’m getting at is that observational (which is probably what I mean instead of correlational) studies can negate a hypothesis, but they can never prove one. So, one hypothesis is that red meat consumption leads to heart disease. If the data shows the trend lines of heart disease and red meat consumption going in opposite directions, then you know your hypothesis…

Observational studies can be post- interventional and in this case can prove or not a hypothesis that a certain widespread intervention was successful. This is very rare and hard to run, so more direct interventional short term studies are used more often. Suppose a certain country believed an observational study pointing that eating more than certain amount of sugar is harmful (suppose backed by other evidence). The…

Yeah, but if there is an intervention, then it is not purely an observational study. The big problem with nutrition science is that most of the long term studies are purely observational. There is no intervention at all. All they are measuring is how certain observed measurements correlate (or not) with other observed measurements. These are the types of studies I'm talking about.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#224

Post by toasterlovin »

brownbat wrote: post #167
toasterlovin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Building a double-blind clinical trial regarding changing people's diets over their lifetime and observing cardiovascular mortality is very hard. But it is the only diet research that can actually generate knowledge. The studies you cite are nice and all, but the first two are for studies that measured outcomes after 6-8 weeks . If you assume an average lifespan of 70 years, the longest study represented ~1/450th o…

Double blind is not quite the only way to acquire knowledge. Even Karl Popper believed in astronomy.

I'm been chewing over your comment since last night, so thanks! These are just some thoughts, which I don't have a high degree of confidence in, but here goes anyway:

I guess the difference between astronomy and diet is that, in my conception, at least, the systems studied in astronomy tend to be less complex than the human body and, therefore, they can be modeled relatively easily. My hunch is that this has something to do the human body being a self regulating, though climate systems on earth are probably of a similar level of complexity, yet are not self regulating (or at least, not in the same way).

So, the difference in complexity between a astronomical system and the human body would be akin to the difference in complexity between a program which implements some relatively straightforward business logic vs. one that implements a system which can identify and hunt prey. You can probably prove the correctness of most programs which implement basic business logic, but I'm guessing a system which can identify and hunt prey probably cannot be proven to be formally correct. You would need to test it in the real world by tweaking inputs and measuring how it responds.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#225

Post by logfromblammo »

balls187 wrote: post #175
logfromblammo wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iceberg lettuce is the most pointless waste of time and money in the entire agricultural industry. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of vegetable quality. Everything is bred for transportability, appearance, and shelf life, then flavor and nutrition go out the window. It's exactly the same story as the Red Delicious apple. They were bred to be very red, not at all sour, and to not bruise too easily. So th…

Come to seattle, try the Steak Salad at the Brooklyn. It's an iceberg wedge salad, with steak (hopefully that part was obvious). It's great.

This seems an impractical suggestion, at best. To spend $450 and fly 2000 miles, to then spend $21 on a lunch-menu salad. Made with iceberg lettuce. Instead of any of the fresh oysters on that menu that I cannot get at home.

That recipe seems to be for disappointment.

If the only way to redeem an otherwise boring and useless chunk of iceberg lettuce is to put better foods on top of it, like steak, why not just throw out the lettuce and eat the other foods instead?

Can you suggest any use for iceberg lettuce that I can test at home that would not be vastly improved by either leaving the iceberg out, or substituting Romaine, Bibb, or leaf lettuce in its place?

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#226

Post by abecedarius »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #218
abecedarius wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people do seriously suggest that: http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanl... (just the first link I found)

I mean relating to this. Obviously there are people suggesting just about every viewpoint under the sun.

Oh, yes, I’d agree that contamination risk must be small compared to whatever the dietary effect might be. (I’d say even the direction of that effect is unknown.)

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#227

Post by rocannon »

windexh8er wrote: post #152
nightski wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have already done this for the past 5 years on a rather strict ketogenic diet eating a fair share of red meat. It's been nothing short of amazing for my health. I'm not saying it's the only way to be healthy, far from it. We are very adaptable. But for me at least, it does not seem to be detrimental in the least.

You've done panels? I had done Paleo for years and on a whim I decided to try plant based for 2018 and have seen many improvements as well. I'd be curious how your panels compare to mine, especially with regard to cardiovascular focal areas.

I'd be curious how your panels compare to mine

Do you have a link to your before/after panels? I'd be curious to see this, and also be interested in your before/after diet.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#228

Post by balls187 »

logfromblammo wrote: post #225
balls187 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to seattle, try the Steak Salad at the Brooklyn. It's an iceberg wedge salad, with steak (hopefully that part was obvious). It's great.

This seems an impractical suggestion, at best. To spend $450 and fly 2000 miles, to then spend $21 on a lunch-menu salad. Made with iceberg lettuce. Instead of any of the fresh oysters on that menu that I cannot get at home. That recipe seems to be for disappointment. If the only way to redeem an otherwise boring and useless chunk of iceberg lettuce is to put better foods on top of it, like steak, why not just throw…

What use do you have for romaine, bibb, or leaf lettuce that doesn't involve putting better foods on top of it?

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#229

Post by eigenstuff »

adrr wrote: post #120
koolba wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salad is an excuse to eat dressing.

Thats like saying french fries are an excuse for eating ketchup or other condiment. You would never eat/drink salad dressing by itself.

Have you ever had woodstock dressing, tho? Because I was just thinking to myself for the millionth time earlier today about how I would TOTALLY drink a glass of it/eat it as a soup if it wasn't, y'know, 100 calories for 2 tablespoons or whatever.

Sorry not sorry.

(Annie's makes it but it's almost impossible to find in stores, so here's the recipe if you're a fan of umami flavors: https://recipes.sparkpeople.com/recipe-detail.asp?recipe=698... )

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#230

Post by betterbeehome »

betterbeehome wrote: post #198
adrianN wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wash your vegetables in bleach before eating them?!

That's what I was thinking. Talk about taking away any benefits of eating salad... more bleach please?

Downvoting me for this was stupid. You know know enough about food if you think bleaching is healthy. Apart of what makes salad healthy is the bacterial culture that's naturally on it. Think probiotics that are essential to maintaining proper digestion of the food you're eating. Seriously, get downvoted for anything.
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