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How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

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Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#211

Post by heedlessly3 »

TheCapn wrote: post #30
panarky wrote: post #26

So what can the salad eater do to be safe? Some pathogens can't be washed off. Others can if you scrub, but not if you rinse. If you buy the whole head, pathogens can hide in the core. And if you buy pre-cut bagged salad, how can you wash that? What if you drench the salad in vinegar before eating it, will that kill E. coli O157:H7?

What I've heard (and I'm only citing unverified word of mouth) is that E.Coli is within the leaf itself, it comes from the water it used. You cannot wash it off or clean it. An infected head of lettuce is garbage.

what if you boil the vegetables in water?

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#212

Post by toasterlovin »

sp3000 wrote: post #169
toasterlovin wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

Gary Taubes has his own biases and problems: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gary-taubes-and-the-case-ag... In fact, the study he proposed to test his hypothesis failed: https://community.fitbit.com/t5/Manage-Weight/NuSI-study-bac... That's not to say Taubes has not written a lot of good and important things, but it is an example of someone who is in so deep that they are missing the forest for the trees. Carbs are…

That’s all fine and we’ll, but I’m not mentioning Taubes for his carbs hypothesis (btw, he goes to great pains in Good Calories, Bad Calories to make sure the reader understands that his hypothesis could be wrong because it is also lacking the necessary type of study to demonstrate it’s effectiveness). I’m linking to him because he has important stuff to say about the limits of epidemiology, in general, and the terrible state of nutrition science, more specifically.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#213

Post by balls187 »

adrianN wrote: post #188
balls187 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, washing in a water & bleach sanitizing solution will. You generally don't cook romaine lettuce prior to making a salad.

You wash your vegetables in bleach before eating them?!

How do you think industrial farms wash vegetables?

https://traditionalcookingschool.com/food-preparation/recipe...

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=chlorine+... (google search)

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#214

Post by toasterlovin »

AstralStorm wrote: post #187
toasterlovin wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, many of the epidemiological studies are over very large populations and time periods, so it's not as though the body of evidence consists of a 6-8 week studies. And honestly the fact that the effects are so strong in such a short period of time strengthen the argument in some ways. The studies all tell us nothing about the long term implications of diet. The long study tells us nothing because it is purely…

Correlation cannot demonstrate lack of causation, only lack of linear dose response. (Incl. Multivariate) Any nonlinear enough process will show with wrong low correlations. Suppose the process is stepwise - silly sample hypothesis, eating over x grams meat a day is harmful. It is binary. Correlation is meaningless for such a process. You have to use significantly more powerful statistic tools. Logistic regression wi…

I’m using the wrong terminology, I’m certain, but what I’m getting at is that observational (which is probably what I mean instead of correlational) studies can negate a hypothesis, but they can never prove one. So, one hypothesis is that red meat consumption leads to heart disease. If the data shows the trend lines of heart disease and red meat consumption going in opposite directions, then you know your hypothesis is wrong. But if the trend lines are going in the same direction, the hypothesis hasn’t been proven; all you know is that it is a potential explanation.

Now, it may be that there is a different relationship, like the one that you mention: that eating more than X grams per day is harmful. The data from an observational study can negate this hypothesis (if there is no threshold pattern evident in the data), but it cannot prove the hypothesis. All it can do, at best, is let you know that the hypothesis might be true.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#215

Post by superdaniel »

Fomite wrote: post #159
didibus wrote: post #68

Okay, so how do I lower my risks? Should I stop buying pre-washed? Should I buy local? I like my salads, how do I get it safely on my plate?

Don't treat pre-washed as pre-washed. Wash it again.

This is actually not recommended:

And while the C.D.C. recommends washing all produce with water, including heads of lettuce, it does not recommend washing other forms of bagged lettuce, which has already been washed before bagging. “Your chances of contaminating it in your kitchen” — with contaminants that may already be on your kitchen countertop, hands or elsewhere — “are actually higher than if you didn’t wash the salad greens,” notes Dr. Gieraltowski.

source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/19/well/eat/romaine-lettuce-...

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#216

Post by djrogers »

windexh8er wrote: post #140
vilmosi wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, there's a bigger chance of getting E. Coli from greens... Also, I believe that was a joke.

This is most certainly untrue. All you have to do is consider the fact that all uncooked meats come with a warning. This is because it is well known, and admitted by the meat and egg industries, that raw and undercooked meats and eggs are unsafe for consumption. This is because of the environments they come out of. Greens on the other hand are not fertilized with manure or subject to E.Coli laden environments during…

> most certainly untrue

Have you read the article? It’s absolutely true, and the article cites many reasons why (hint, the fact that we cook meat is one of them).

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#217

Post by talmand »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #200
markdown wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you wore them right up to your bed, not taking them off at the door? :O

I have wooden floors, so I'm not too concerned about wearing shoes inside.

This chain has made me curious; has there been any study of the negative health consequences of people's behavior with shoes within their living space? I'm not aware of any health concerns (major or minor) over such a thing.

For example, if such things were a worry then I'd be more concerned over my dog's bare paws while outside and his nonchalant attitude of not wiping them as he comes inside.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#218

Post by s73v3r_ »

abecedarius wrote: post #135
s73v3r_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that we eat fewer leafy greens. I, however, definitely think that there could be a lot of improvements to the way that we farm them.

Yes, people do seriously suggest that: http://highsteaks.com/carnivores-creed/owsley-the-bear-stanl... (just the first link I found)

I mean relating to this. Obviously there are people suggesting just about every viewpoint under the sun.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#219

Post by AstralStorm »

toasterlovin wrote: post #214
AstralStorm wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation cannot demonstrate lack of causation, only lack of linear dose response. (Incl. Multivariate) Any nonlinear enough process will show with wrong low correlations. Suppose the process is stepwise - silly sample hypothesis, eating over x grams meat a day is harmful. It is binary. Correlation is meaningless for such a process. You have to use significantly more powerful statistic tools. Logistic regression wi…

I’m using the wrong terminology, I’m certain, but what I’m getting at is that observational (which is probably what I mean instead of correlational) studies can negate a hypothesis, but they can never prove one. So, one hypothesis is that red meat consumption leads to heart disease. If the data shows the trend lines of heart disease and red meat consumption going in opposite directions, then you know your hypothesis…

Observational studies can be post- interventional and in this case can prove or not a hypothesis that a certain widespread intervention was successful.

This is very rare and hard to run, so more direct interventional short term studies are used more often.

Suppose a certain country believed an observational study pointing that eating more than certain amount of sugar is harmful (suppose backed by other evidence). They instated hard tax and limit on sugar in foods as an intervention. After some time a big observational study is ran and it is assessed if the intervention brought results.

This is precisely what observational studies (follow up) should do. Not really try to find hypotheses - these need more direct evidence.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#220

Post by greglindahl »

sooper wrote: post #196
greglindahl wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more fair that many, many places have done the same thing. When I was in Ghana for a summer in 1987, I was warned that "night soil" was often used in vegetable fields, and I should watch out for my tender American digestive system not being able to deal with the uncooked results. No slight against Ghana in particular, that's typical for countries at Ghana's level of development.

I don't think it is a slight against Ghana. They may well be ahead of the curve on something we may all have to move back to, i.e. "Recycling animal and human dung is the key to sustainable farming"[1]. [1] http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/recycling-animal-and-...

I'm all for sustainable farming, and poop is a manageable risk on fields where you cook what's grown there. But you don't treat vegetable fields with raw poop, which is what I was referring to... especially vegetables designed to be eaten uncooked.
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