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How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

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Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#141

Post by windexh8er »

toasterlovin wrote: post #139
windexh8er wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your claim is you have better scientific basis than industry experts? I'll gladly challenge you to a 6-12 month comparison of you eating meats and me eating a primary plant based diet and pay for WellnessFX panels. If you lose you repay me. Edit: vegetable --> plant, and if I win (we can agree on some defined objective comparisons and scoring offline) I'll even donate the money you'd have repaid back to the charit…

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

You're choosing a position based on a personal bias and ignore scientific evidence by industry experts. You also won't back up your unfounded claims and chose to ignore the challenge I've presented. I wonder why...

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#143

Post by HarryHirsch »

aphextron wrote: post #31

>Instead of shipping heads of lettuce or large carrot sticks that people wash, we chop them and mix them up in processing, then package them in plastic bags. In that process, Marler said, “The bacteria has a chance to grow. And a lot of people get sick.” This confirms what I had always been suspicious of. Those prepackaged veggies sitting in plastic bags are just a few degrees of temperature away from being perfect b…

The bagged stuff is packed under inert gas to prevent spoilage. The human nose is exquisitely tuned to detect "off" flavours under ordinary circumstances, but the bacteria that thrive in a nitrogen atmosphere are different, and you can catch food poisoning without noticing that the food had gone off.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#144

Post by toasterlovin »

windexh8er wrote: post #141
toasterlovin wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what I’m saying is that correlational studies are fundamentally incapable of proving causation[0]. Furthermore, despite 50 years of nutritional advice in line with the study you linked to, and despite reductions in red meat consumption[1], health outcomes have gotten catastrophically worse, not better. So maybe the conclusions that people are drawing from these studies are wrong. Read Good Calories, Bad Calories…

You're choosing a position based on a personal bias and ignore scientific evidence by industry experts. You also won't back up your unfounded claims and chose to ignore the challenge I've presented. I wonder why...

No, I’m ignoring the experts because anybody with half a brain can see that they are wrong. And I ignored your silly challenge because it has no bearing on the argument we are having.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#145

Post by WillPostForFood »

windexh8er wrote: post #108
toasterlovin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Building a double-blind clinical trial regarding changing people's diets over their lifetime and observing cardiovascular mortality is very hard. But it is the only diet research that can actually generate knowledge. The studies you cite are nice and all, but the first two are for studies that measured outcomes after 6-8 weeks . If you assume an average lifespan of 70 years, the longest study represented ~1/450th o…

Using a defensive position from the "white" meat interest is likely inaccurate. Red meat consumption is on the rise: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-02/have-a-me...

The article you linked is showing data for red meat + poultry, so it doesn’t support the statement that red meat consumption is on the rise.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#146

Post by rdtsc »

contingencies wrote: post #133
rdtsc wrote: post #5

> Leafy vegetables were also the second most common cause of food poisoning-related hospitalizations. I never quite got to like lettuce. I don't know why people like it. It just doesn't have much taste, its leaves are too big, so have to shove them in awkwardly. I'd rather have a salad with chopped ripe tomatoes, onions / chives, cucumbers, cabbage, etc. Even with those, I often wonder if people don't eat more veggie…

Cut the lettuce before serving. Use chopsticks instead of forks, which after you are accustomed to chopsticks are frankly ridiculously barbaric implements. I am western but I loathe eating many things with blunt knives and clunky forks. Learn to appreciate the texture and color of food, not just the taste.

I do like chopsticks. Especially for kimchi, I can eat and ungodly amount of that very quickly. And I use it for other foods as well. Never quite got used to eating rice with chopsticks though, end up getting frustrated and switch to a fork after some time.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#147

Post by nightski »

windexh8er wrote: post #130
toasterlovin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to break it to you, but even cardiologists can’t summon causation from correlation.

So your claim is you have better scientific basis than industry experts? I'll gladly challenge you to a 6-12 month comparison of you eating meats and me eating a primary plant based diet and pay for WellnessFX panels. If you lose you repay me. Edit: vegetable --> plant, and if I win (we can agree on some defined objective comparisons and scoring offline) I'll even donate the money you'd have repaid back to the charit…

I have already done this for the past 5 years on a rather strict ketogenic diet eating a fair share of red meat. It's been nothing short of amazing for my health. I'm not saying it's the only way to be healthy, far from it. We are very adaptable. But for me at least, it does not seem to be detrimental in the least.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#148

Post by rdtsc »

logfromblammo wrote: post #84
rdtsc wrote: post #5

> Leafy vegetables were also the second most common cause of food poisoning-related hospitalizations. I never quite got to like lettuce. I don't know why people like it. It just doesn't have much taste, its leaves are too big, so have to shove them in awkwardly. I'd rather have a salad with chopped ripe tomatoes, onions / chives, cucumbers, cabbage, etc. Even with those, I often wonder if people don't eat more veggie…

Iceberg lettuce is the most pointless waste of time and money in the entire agricultural industry. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of vegetable quality. Everything is bred for transportability, appearance, and shelf life, then flavor and nutrition go out the window. It's exactly the same story as the Red Delicious apple. They were bred to be very red, not at all sour, and to not bruise too easily. So th…

Yes, agreed.

My parents used to have a small garden growing up and we grew tomatoes once in a while. It was pain, because they needed a lot of watering, but they had an intense delicious flavor. I'd just go and eat them one after another right off the vine. Here in US it's hard to find that flavor. Some of the little green and yellow mixed tomatoes kind of have flavor, they are call heirloom tomatoes, I usually buy those.

> They used to be small, but intensely flavored, and ranging from very sweet to slightly sour.

The most delicious strawberries I have ever had, were wild strawberries. They were very smaller, about the size of a raspberry or smaller and would find them the woods in Eastern Europe when we went to pick mushrooms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_vesca

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#149

Post by rdtsc »

koolba wrote: post #8
rdtsc wrote: post #5

> Leafy vegetables were also the second most common cause of food poisoning-related hospitalizations. I never quite got to like lettuce. I don't know why people like it. It just doesn't have much taste, its leaves are too big, so have to shove them in awkwardly. I'd rather have a salad with chopped ripe tomatoes, onions / chives, cucumbers, cabbage, etc. Even with those, I often wonder if people don't eat more veggie…

Salad is an excuse to eat dressing.

Exactly! I and think if veggies had a more intense flavor, nobody would feel the need to add any dressing. Maybe oil, salt, and a bit of vinegar. But if the bulk of the salad is romaine lettuce, then without dressing is like eating crunchy water.

Re: How salad became a major source of food poisoning in the US

#150

Post by darkerside »

gregable wrote: post #100
toasterlovin wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just keep in mind that epidemiology is fundamentally not able to tell you anything about positive causation. In this case, individuals who eat more that 5 servings of fruits and vegetables probably also exhibit a whole host of behaviors that contribute to this outcome. Essentially, they are not a representative sample of the population at large, but rather a sub-group who is "healthful" in a whole bunch of ways.

I fully concede this (and jacobolus's) point. I'm not a health researcher either, so don't take my word for any of this. Building a double-blind clinical trial regarding changing people's diets over their lifetime and observing cardiovascular mortality is very hard. Some clinical studies do exist, but they are usually looking over shorter terms and at heart disease risk factors rather than mortality. These show simil…

Changing and tracking diet long-term is nigh impossible. Has there been any work that you know of using economic incentives as a proxy? i.e. test group is granted coupons good for fruits and vegetables, while control group is granted fully discretionary coupons

Obviously it's an imperfect experiment, but it seems like a pragmatic compromise.

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