Live data from Hacker News

The rise of the pointless job

theguardian.com

241–250 of 499 posts

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#241
The problem is clearly not just about completely pointless jobs. Among jobs that actually have a purpose, we find many that are: required to deal with the problems generated by bad practices/inefficiency (the article mentions duct-tapers. Commenters here also mention how in computer science we deal with a lot of technical debt, even when many times we know there's no way out unless we rewrite from scratch), or even worse, generated by the own inefficiencies and 'stupidity loops' in a system (see a good deal of bureaucracy, supervision and reporting taks, goons, etc.)

Of course we can't remove inefficiency completely, but these are big problems with big consequences. I'm really saddened by it: I regularly see a lot of comments from people that seem to be very capable but end up doing dull jobs, for dumb bosses, wasting their potential when they could be adding so much more value to our societies (and also be happier with it). And I don't intend to blame anyone here, it's not like we have much better choices in many cases. Sometimes you even think we would be able to achieve more with less man-hours if we didn't spend so many of them on nonsense.

The need for jobs for everyone has also been discussed. UBI as an alternative, etc. To me it's clear the number of jobs we need/will need in the future will fall. And that's a good thing (we can produce more with less resources), but it also has very negative consequences, due to the way our economic system works and our need for money. But there's also a social problem. The concept of work is so valued that society rarely stops to reflect about the positive consequences of needing less work. And without this, it's really hard to build towards that society with less jobs or less work hours sanely. The difference between "work" and "paid work" is very important, and I feel we don't talk enough about it either. Work is important for humans, even necessary. But we can't keep repeating nice quotes that are actually referring to "work" and applying them to "paid work" to evangelize the concept.

The whole situation is very frustrating. I'm quite young, and I think about it pretty often. I don't really like the perspective for most jobs I could do. What can I do? What can we do? Ignore the rest of the world and just try to find the best place for yourself? Try to live with less? Get in politics, start a business? I find it really hard to ignore so much waste of potential and useless pain.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#242
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my family lived in Japan years ago, we noticed that when taking the train, approximately three attendants checked our tickets before we boarded a train. At least two of those jobs are "bullshit" in terms of producing wealth, but they are socially beneficial in a culture where the social contract requires near-zero unemployment. (I, apparently like you, can't help but remember this kind of arrangement when listen…

Is visited the USA just once (in 2003), but there was an old man that took my bag off the end of the luggage belt at the airport and handed it to me. I could easily have picked it up myself, but he was there for those 30 centimeters of bag travel. I remember being amazed about it and remarking the pointlessness of that job to my coworkers.

I'm always a bit taken back when visiting the toilet at clubs and some restaurants when I'm in the UK as there's a gentleman sitting by the sink handing out towels and stuff. Very strange and utterly useless. Not sure if he's paid by the club or lives of tip, but it makes me really uncomfortable. I just want to take a piss and wash my hands, not have an awkward conversation with a towel handler.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#243

I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of economics and capitalism, and deserves to be called out. Remember that David Graeber is an anthropologist, not an economist. Pointless jobs exist because of inefficiences. Someone higher up couldn't be bothered to automate it, and there isn't enough oversight of the budget. An entrenched interest (like a no-longer-needed union regulation) is too ha…

You are not allowed to speak positively of capitalism here. It is a messy system, far inferior to the more modern technocratic ways we should be following.

Yes, and the fact that capitalism created the conditions that allow people like the ones who pontificate on HN about the messiness of capitalism to exist at all should go completely unmentioned.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, digging a hole in the ground and then filling it up is horribly, soul crushingly demotivating. Even if someone is working in a job that de facto amounts to doing just that, it should be covered up so that this fact isn't obvious and that a person can reasonably choose to ignore the truth and convince themselves that their job has some real value. Which is actually done, all kinds of internal propaganda, glor…

> However, digging a hole in the ground and then filling it up is horribly, soul crushingly demotivating. Ah you see, this is why you have one person doing the digging, and another doing the filling! This way, each man goes home satisfied.

For a second I thought this was a metaphor for software projects...

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#245
post #15

I have said this before, but I see some parallels between the modern world and Japan during the early Tokugawa era. Japan had pretty much reached a steady state by the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu came to power in 1600; most of the available land had been cultivated or settled, and, especially after the policies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, society was locked in a rigid structure without much room for advancement or unrest. As a…

This is very similar to the situation that caused the Swiss to become the mercenaries of Europe. If you were the second son, you weren't going to inherit the farm and thus in a resource-poor country like Switzerland of the Middle Ages, your best choice was to go abroad and find some feudal lord putting together an army. Thus you became a "freelance" and hopefully found riches. I've always thought Machiavelli's dislik…

I think Machiavelli's was worried that the mercs would take over. Which is effectively happened in India princes and kings hiring foreign mercs from France and Britain.

Another example is the Janissaries in turkey.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds pretty interesting, can you recommend any books on Japan about this particular period/topic?

For a view of what this looked like on the ground, you should check out "Musui's Story: The Autobiography of a Tokugawa Samurai". It's the autobiography of Katsu Kokichi (Musui is another name he was known by), a samurai born in the early 19th century to a very low-ranking family. It's a firsthand account of life at the very lowest fringe of Shogunate society at the very end of that system, and is quite entertaining…

Sounds like Only Fools and Horses :-)

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds pretty interesting, can you recommend any books on Japan about this particular period/topic?

you could also read shogun by james clavell, which is a fictional novel based on tokugawa. i read his whole asian saga series because that first book was so good.

Oh yes and a bet a large number of readers fell in love with Mariko

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#248
post #242
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is visited the USA just once (in 2003), but there was an old man that took my bag off the end of the luggage belt at the airport and handed it to me. I could easily have picked it up myself, but he was there for those 30 centimeters of bag travel. I remember being amazed about it and remarking the pointlessness of that job to my coworkers.

I'm always a bit taken back when visiting the toilet at clubs and some restaurants when I'm in the UK as there's a gentleman sitting by the sink handing out towels and stuff. Very strange and utterly useless. Not sure if he's paid by the club or lives of tip, but it makes me really uncomfortable. I just want to take a piss and wash my hands, not have an awkward conversation with a towel handler.

He or she is just living off of the tips, and of the selling of perfume and mints.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#249
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were certainly plenty of hits of edgy-teenageriness in that book.

Not to forget this quote for the ages: Apple Computers is a famous example: it was founded by (mostly Republi­can) computer engineers who broke from IBM in Silicon Valley in the 1980s, forming little democratic circles of twenty to forty people with their laptops in each other's garages.

Laptops in the 70's do tell

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#250
post #242
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is visited the USA just once (in 2003), but there was an old man that took my bag off the end of the luggage belt at the airport and handed it to me. I could easily have picked it up myself, but he was there for those 30 centimeters of bag travel. I remember being amazed about it and remarking the pointlessness of that job to my coworkers.

I'm always a bit taken back when visiting the toilet at clubs and some restaurants when I'm in the UK as there's a gentleman sitting by the sink handing out towels and stuff. Very strange and utterly useless. Not sure if he's paid by the club or lives of tip, but it makes me really uncomfortable. I just want to take a piss and wash my hands, not have an awkward conversation with a towel handler.

I've always understood that this person's actual job was making sure that no-one was taking drugs in / vandalizing / doing anything illegal in the bathrooms.

They're there so the owner of the club/restaurant can relax, not you.

Post reply on HN