The rise of the pointless job • Hacker News Board

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#71

Post by iriNjfk993 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

mfoy_ wrote: post #27

Keynes was a little more direct: "The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up."

The frustrating thing is though: we have plenty of real demand

Social work, infrastructure repairs, mental health services.

But all the effort coalesces around BIG Corp. and Douche Co. needs first

Somehow we’re convinced that Bezos and Koch’s are more important than our neighbors

Some looney economists will tell you it’s proven in physics these people are just better

Ignoring the history of violent imperialism and collusion, and oppression that prevented and neutered whole swaths of people from catching up or getting ahead

My take is humans are ignorant animals who are emotionally captured by novelty and special interests keep peddling it to stoke that dopamine buzz

Then when you read in open access government documents they’ve been studying exactly that since WW1, and handing that research to unis who turned it into journalism, advertising, marketing, and management courses, you don’t go “oh deep state!” You go holy shit are we dumb. This is right in front of our faces, no conspiracy theory needed. Documented in official record, in plain view, how government has been dictating what we work on in the land of the free

The first topic that got me onto this pattern: was doing a research paper on thorium reactors since they were all buzzwordy a few years ago

In the 50s they were THE leading effort for energy

That all stopped when a Naval officer realized submarines could be equipped with quieter nuclear engines and weapons and be parked on the coast of whenever undetected

Thorium research was archived and we got to build unstable, by comparison, reactors as a result

And then you see it’s like that all over the historical record from the era

And you realize Bezos and Koch’s aren’t special. They were lucky to be alive now in a heavily curated system with a plain paper trail

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#72

Post by crazygringo » Fri, May 04, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of economics and capitalism, and deserves to be called out. Remember that David Graeber is an anthropologist, not an economist.

Pointless jobs exist because of inefficiences. Someone higher up couldn't be bothered to automate it, and there isn't enough oversight of the budget. An entrenched interest (like a no-longer-needed union regulation) is too hard to fight. Etc.

But capitalism is the most marvelous machine for removing inefficiencies, and therefore removing pointless jobs. Why? Because the owner/capitalist will make more money when they're removed/automated. It's easy to say McDonald's cashiers have pointless jobs, and they're being replaced with kiosks. Or taxi drivers with driverless cars. The same way the original human "computers" were replaced by calculating machines. The process isn't perfect and certainly isn't instant, but it happens and is relentless.

Pointless jobs decrease over time. And trying to claim that they're rising, as Graeber does, is simply disingenuous and dishonest.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#73

Post by mac01021 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

mfoy_ wrote: post #47

tlb wrote: post #19

The goon category is interesting in a future world where AI has replaced most jobs, because it can employ an unlimited number of people. (Goon jobs exist to counterbalance other goon jobs. Militaries are the canonical example.) Most jobs -- teachers, auto workers, plumbers, farmers -- have a natural ceiling on employment related to demand, but goon jobs don't because when one side hires more goons, the other side has…

I die inside. But any suggestion of "mincome" or the like is met with such a harsh reaction... What, effectively, is the difference between goon-bloom and mincome? Is it just that one is too obviously a subsidy?

Goons are often highly skilled and highly compensated. So that's one difference.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#74

Post by mac01021 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #67

_rpd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't think it would be a bad thing if there were ten times as many lawyers, so that the cost of using the legal system became affordable to the vast majority of the people living under it.

Talking about America? Look at other countries for a better solution. :)

Which ones?

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#75

Post by ams6110 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #37

mfoy_ wrote: post #27

Keynes was a little more direct: "The government should pay people to dig holes in the ground and then fill them up."

Keynes said that the government paying people to dig holes and fill them up was sufficient to escape a liquidity trap. He didn't actually advocate nonproductive work.

There's tons of actual productive work that could be done though. Cleaning trash from streets and parks, filling potholes, fixing sidewalks, pulling weeds, painting over graffiti. These things would would make everyone's days a little nicer.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#76

Post by smm2000 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

Author lost me on doorman. Doormen absolutely bring value and saying that doormen is bullshit job is the same as saying that waitress is a bullshit job - in the end customer is fully capable of bringing the food from the counter to his table on his own.

Doormen Can accept packages when you are not in your apt (leaving outside is not an option in NY)

  Can accept laundry delivery

  Provide security by screening people out at the entrance

  Virtually eliminate burglaries/theft

  Can provide key to housecleaner/installer/plumber/etc

  Keep parking spot in front of building available for short time use by residents (often semi-illegally)

  Can help brining up heavy suitcases/bags to the apartment

Doormen absolutely provide value and apts in buildings with doormen sells for more than equivalent apartments with only intercall.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#77

Post by foamflower » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

romanr wrote: post #29

This is another argument in favor of universal income. Bullshit jobs is one of consequences of progress, low cost goods, food and comfort. With increasing automation it’s going to be get incrementally harder to find bullshit jobs for people. until society understands that not everyone can and have to be employed.

The opposite is true. At some point in the past, elevator operators served a useful function, since elevators were hard to operate. Today, even the existence of automation (i.e. accessible elevator UI) has not completely driven the elevator operator extinct, but has transmuted his job into bullshit. Same goes for gas pump improvements (I suppose we can thank New Jersey and until recently Oregon). The entire "Flunkies" category seems to exist only because of the existence of automation.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#78

Post by geodel » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #60

c22 wrote: post #56

A lot of people have pointless jobs, but it seems even more people have jobs that are actively contributing to the wanton destruction of our entire world. I suspect these are both symptoms of our elevation of capital to the status of universal good . This will only get worse as long as we continue to espouse the default view that people who "don't have a job" are useless moochers and people who have high paying jobs…

"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads." --Jeff Hammerbacher

The best minds of previous generations were fighting wars or leading battles. I personally do not think either of those activities is specifically better or worse.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#79

Post by _rpd » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #67

_rpd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't think it would be a bad thing if there were ten times as many lawyers, so that the cost of using the legal system became affordable to the vast majority of the people living under it.

Talking about America? Look at other countries for a better solution. :)

I think it generalizes. Having a personal advocate will almost always yield a better personal solution than even a well intentioned bureaucrat. The law is complex, and the ability to afford a personal advocate is a very sharp privilege.

I think I've even seen this dynamic at play in international negotiations, with poorer countries being swamped by the experienced legal teams of larger countries, or being forced to effectively delegate their authority to an NGO that maintains a competitive legal team.

Re: The rise of the pointless job

#80

Post by expensivedrone » Fri, May 04, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

I'm a programmer working at a big-tech company. I make ~$350k/year, even though my job could be done equally well by a college intern. I only do ~2 hours of productive work in an average day. My previous jobs were far more interesting and challenging, and I had apparently done extremely well in my interviews. Hence why I got an offer with an extremely good compensation package.

However, the team that I go put into, is one of the slowest moving and least useful I've ever seen. I spent my first couple months trying to make things better, and be more productive - only to have my team-lead actively micromanage and stonewall me in order to bring my productivity down to a crawl. I tried talking to my manager about it, but they started blaming me personally every time I pointed out any ways of improving the way we do things.

Eventually, I stopped trying at all, did the best I could (~2 hours/day of productivity), and just zoned out the rest of the time. Apparently this has pleased my manager/team-lead, and everything has been smooth (boring) sailing ever since. It still boggles my mind that I'm getting paid $350k/year to essentially browse HN and post stuff like this all day.