Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#171

Post by cmrdporcupine » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

Kelbit wrote: post #13

If Canadian companies were willing to offer a competitive salary, maybe Canadian grads would stay. It doesn't even have to be 1:1 with the US, even 75% would be nice. As it is, there is little incentive to stay here. I know a new grad who was faced with the choice of staying in Canada to earn $40-50k CAD per year starting, or heading to the US where he had a job offer with one of the big five for $120k USD plus signi…

Oh they're willing to pay for the talent. They just bring it in from the PRC or Eastern Europe, or India. And they can pay far less for that.

I'm not opposed to immigration at all. But prior to coming to Google Canada most of the people I worked with in Toronto were not holders of Canadian degrees. They were recent immigrants, permanent residents and not citizens and therefore themselves unable to go to the US. Many of these people were underpaid significantly, and a lot of them mistreated, in my opinion.

The homegrown talent from Waterloo, etc. had mostly left for the U.S.

Some come back after a few years, but many never do.

Add to that the dynamic of many American companies opening offices here as a 'nearshore' lower cost shop, where all the important and interesting decisions are made in the US and the Canadian shop's job is to just execute it.... crappy.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#172

Post by soperj » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

monkeynotes wrote: post #46

pmalynin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in this situation, that is I'm graduating next year and I already have a job lined up in SV. Personally, there just isn't anything for me here. I hate winter (depression for 7 months, anyone?). Everything is far. Entertainment is sparse unless it involves 1) hockey or 2) drinking, or both. Pay is shit. Prices are shit. Selection is shit (have you tried using Amazon CA?). Food, at least where I am, is good but no…

Not that I advocate Vancouver in its entirety, but Vancouver has good food, good pay, and loads of outdoors activities and weekend adventure possibilities along with a shit-ton of tech jobs that need filling. The weather is pretty normal too, not far off of SF. Problem with Vancouver is it's kind of dull entertainment-wise. Lacks vibrancy of some US cities. It's more or less as expensive to live as SF is, and obvious…

good pay? nope.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#173

Post by refurb » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

handsomechad wrote: post #95

cfcf14 wrote: post #32

Canadian living in London for about 4 years now - of course people are leaving. The pay is incredibly low in major Canadian cities like Vancouver & Toronto; I was looking at 50-60k/yr there, ~150k in the US, or about 60-70k GPB in London. Now, London isn't exactly cheap, and my overall buying power here is probably only mildly superior to what it would be in Canada, but I get to live in a great city with all the amen…

What industries pay better in Canada? What industry is Canada a good place for? At least, better than tech. Or is it just that tech workers have so much opportunity and mobility that there's too much incentive for them to leave their domestic labor markets.

Coming from Western Canada, the oil and gas industry pays pretty well, or at least it did when I last talked to folks. The O&G industry in Canada is on-par with that in the US.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#174

Post by jessriedel » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

_mhyx wrote: post #68

jessriedel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think something even stronger would be true if you asked about non-CA US states. Why would Canada, at 1/10th the US population, have more of an independent tech locus than does Texas (which has a population comparable to Canada)? Is this just a difference of nations re-distributing wealth internally but not between nations?

Austin is a huge tech town, and rapidly growing. I get a lot of recruiter emails to go there. Same with KC, but to a lessor extent. I was just in Montreal - the difference in prices with the US was staggering. You forget how wealthy we are, sometimes, even compared to the rest of the developed world. (Had an incredible French meal with 2 bottles of wine over 3 hours and it came out to ~$90 a head American)

I don't think you're disagreeing? There will be reasons to have some local tech workers and entrepreneurs in all large cities, including Austin, Dallas, Toronto, and Montreal. But there will also be global nexuses of them in places like SV, and the higher wages in SV vs. Dallas/Toronto reflects the value of the nexuses (and is the economic mechanisms that induces workers to move there).

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#175

Post by wk_end » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

ryanobjc wrote: post #155

_xzxj wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here (who lives outside of Canada but recently did a stint there for a bit) and this will sound negative but f-it. Canadian culture sucks when it comes to trying new things. Canada has some extra safety net but the culture is puritanical and conservative and nobody wants to go out on a limb and try something new and crazy. Not like Americans. Those that do are constantly questioned by everybody. The idea of…

The liberalness of Canada is overhyped. The reality is Canada is deeply conservative. It's possible to have universal health care and be conservative, that's only a oxymoron in the US. To quote this excellent article[1]: "the default setting of the Canadian male: a dull but stern dad, who, under a facade of apparent normalcy and common sense, conceals a reserve of barely contained hostility toward anyone who might ro…

Where in Canada did you live and gone to school?

I live in the US now, and don't disagree that Americans as a people are more...well, I like the word 'ambitious'.

But I think your characterization of Canada is overly harsh: in Toronto and Montreal I know (and love) misfits just as individual, wild, and free as anyone I met during my years in Brooklyn.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#176

Post by jessriedel » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

bacongobbler wrote: post #40

jessriedel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think something even stronger would be true if you asked about non-CA US states. Why would Canada, at 1/10th the US population, have more of an independent tech locus than does Texas (which has a population comparable to Canada)? Is this just a difference of nations re-distributing wealth internally but not between nations?

Canada's diversifying its job investment portfolio around jobs in high-tech and pulling that funding out of natural resources. You're starting to see that across the country. Calgary's starting to become a mini tech center for example.

Can't we say similar things (transitioning from natural resources to tech) about Texas? Are you disagreeing with me?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#177

Post by overcast » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

Kluny wrote: post #56

Canadian here. I get $65,000 USD from my remote American job. That's low enough that people on this forum snicker at me, and high enough that companies in the "tech town" that I live in physically wince when I tell them my salary expectation. I'd rather work locally, but what can I do?

$65,000 isn't peanuts. It all depends on the cost of living. Where I am, my cost of living adjustment for SF or NY is double my pay. Where I'll be renting, instead of owning a house. I live 5 minutes from the office, everywhere is easily accessible within 15 minutes, plenty of parking, the food and cocktail scene is huge here, and lots of outdoors, lakes etc.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#178

Post by richardpap » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

Raphmedia wrote: post #49

criddell wrote: post #31

I've often wondered why Canada doesn't have way more entrepreneurs. With a strong social safety net, you can work on your startup and not have to worry about losing your health insurance.

You can also not do anything risky at all and not worry about losing your housing. It's very comfortable to let life carry you around when you know that nothing bad can happen to you. Pessimism aside, there's not much education about the whole concept of being an entrepreneur. Most people wouldn't even know where to start. Everyone is being pushed to either college or a trade school right after high school. Not once…

What is different in Canada that prevents you from losing housing? What happens if you can't pay rent?

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#179

Post by Kelbit » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #148

wk_end wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been suggested to me that because of Canada's long history of a resource-based economy, Canadian investors are far more accustomed to the long, slow model of: let's research a site for several years, make sure it'll be profitable, build a town , and get to work. The higher risk, fail-fast nature of VC investing is just too foreign to their business model.

One of the problems is the public demands a lower risk investment. A single Theranos would knee cap the entire VC industry in Canada. "How could this be allowed to happen?!" The stories of LPs losing their $50k investments would lead the newspapers for months. In Silicon Valley its a, 'Oh that sucks, but the smart money stayed away, that should have been a tell for the other investors".

That already happened, to a degree. Canada's dot-com darling was Nortel, which at peak accounted for 1/3 of the total valuation on the Toronto Stock Exchange.

Then the bubble burst and Nortel collapsed. A lot of institutional investors swore off tech after that, and it hasn't really rebounded.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#180

Post by ryanobjc » Fri, May 04, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

mitjak wrote: post #139

bacongobbler wrote: post #18

US salaries are much higher, the tech industry is booming in the states, and it's very simple to apply for a visa or start a consulting company to work remotely from home. If you're a student graduating out of a Canadian college/university and are looking for ways to advance your career (while making a lot more money on the side), what's not to love about moving or working remote?

I'm curious what percentage of that salary goes to pay for housing. I don't think a higher salary makes sense if the other expenses are proportionally higher.

So here's the thing, yes your percentage might be higher. But what's left over is in absolute terms huge. For example, if you have an extra $3000 a month after paying for housing, that's pretty powerful even if you are paying 40% for housing. Sure in a different place you might be at 30% but your post-pay is like $1000. So net wise you're 3x better even with a "worse" rent percentage.