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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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621–630 of 739 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#621

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

I think there's a pretty plausible answer here - StackOverflow is hostile to everyone , and that means people who already feel insecure or burdened by impostor syndrome or like they have to struggle to be recognized - even if they're not technically being treated any worse - end up experiencing that hostility and intimidating attitude even more .

It's not only insecurity; people with less patience for hostility will react to the hostility by leaving--not by hanging around, and certainly not by trying to earn hostility karma.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to stop answering certain questions, and only address "well asked" questions. I love Stack Overflow, and it's sure a valuable if imperfect resource, but this is something that drives me bonkers about it. If the question is intelligible enough to receive an answer, and if your answer is potentially helpful to the asker, then…

I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. If you could only meet the needs…

I agree with this. There are different goals for different people on SO, and while I think the blog is generally good and the idea for guiding questions is good, there's other low-hanging fruit here.

We tend to forget that even really basic things like googling for an answer are learned skills. Some people are so green, they don't even know what they are looking for. They have some collection of objects that they want in a certain order, but they don't know enough to know the name of the thing they are looking for is a sorting algorithm. Or you have a situation where someone needs a linked list, but they have no idea what to call it, so searching fails. I've seen genuinely bright people who are new to programming fail in this way and get really frustrated when people tell them to "just fucking google it" when they already did, but honestly didn't know what to call what they were looking for.

On the other side, you have some people who are not so interested in a single canonical answer to a well-formed question. There are people who really get a lot of enjoyment out of guiding people and teaching them.

I would say the quickest way to satisfy a lot of the dynamic here is to have a place to migrate really poor questions instead of just closing them down. Something like how-to.stackoverflow.com or whatever.

Yes, some people just don't want to learn and are looking for someone else to do their homework. It's true. But I think those are best evaluated by the kinds of people who want to hang out there and try to offer guidance rather than the population as a whole who is going for more of a nerdapedia site.

In other words, give the people who want to teach a place to teach, and give the general site a way to move those questions to that context. Let the teaching-focused users evaluate the genuinely bad actors.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#623
post #200
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

Totally agree. While I do think “newer coders” may very likely feel unwelcome, as an extension of the elitism issue, there’s no mechanism by which “people of color”, “women”, or “minorities” can even be identified... I fear people are subconsciously correlating these groups with “less able coders”. Obviously this correlation serves only to damage.

> there’s no mechanism by which ... “women” ... can even be identified

_No_ mechanism? Seriously? How about when the user is named "Jane Smith"? Or, heaven forbid, they actually use a PROFILE PICTURE with their ACTUAL FACE. Oh god the horror!

I, as a white male with a caucasian sounding name have the privilege of being able to use my actual name on the internet. Women that want to be taken seriously don't even have that choice.

Sure over time women figure out that anonymizing their gender online is a wise strategy, but how many brand new programming-enthusiasts are going to learn this when they have negative first experiences on the most popular Q&A platform for programmers? How many never return to contribute because of those negative experiences?

It's no wonder you can't go to SO and find women, they either aren't contributing or they have effectively hidden themselves among the ranks of the men.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#624
post #11

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. This is such an important point and missed so often by technical types. Impressed to hear it stated so clearly here.

Maybe they should make a stackoverflow for women. The answer doesn't have to be right, it just has to make you feel good. Men built stackoverflow. Yes, those "technical types". Men can build things like this precisely because men value what is correct. If you want somewhere where feelings have a place you should stick to the creative arts.

> Maybe they should make a stackoverflow for women. The answer doesn't have to be right, it just has to make you feel good.

You're being a shithead. This isn't about men or women, and feelings are not exclusive to women. For example, I am sure it doesn't feel nice to be called a shithead.

However, it's inaccurate to assume that the problems on SO stem from how these mythological women feel. There's a disagreement and lack of clarity on the purpose of the site. That needs to be resolved.

Moreover, the site has become a big enough platform that it now it needs to answer the question whether it exists to serve the needs of the users, or primarily to serve its own assumed purpose.

I don't know why the SO blog chose to highlight women, poc etc. as the ones inconvenienced by this. Poor move on their part, as it seems to have targeted these populations as the cause of the problem.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#625
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nuance here. There are plenty of cases where individuals ask XY questions, meaning they've gone down a strange route to solve X and now need help solving Y, and it's always been debated within the community on whether you should solve X or oftentimes go to great lengths to solve Y. I've seen many questions where a solution to X is answered and heavily downvoted. I'm not sure how you resolve that. Question: Ho…

My experience is always been like this: Question: I'm trying to do Y so I can do X. I know Z is the right way to do X, but I'm not allowed to do it for $BUSINESS_REASON that I have absolutely no control over. Response 1: Don't use Y to do X. Use Z. Response 2: $BUSINESS_REASON is stupid, fix that. Then some time later I'll come back and post my work around, with fair warning it isn't the right way to solve problem X,…

Mine too. As a result I ask a question on SO as a last resort, and spend more time preemptively addressing those kinds of unhelpful responses. It always seems like I have to make at least 3 exasperated comments to try to keep the question on track.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#626
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does anyone even know what color or sex someone is on SO? Seems like those people are either imagining it or they're generally intimidated by programmers and their typical arrogant or blunt attitudes everywhere.

I saw an example a while back of an SO question about "how should I store gender (sex) in a database". Conflating the two may alienate or upset a transgender individual, without the participants in the Q&A ever being aware of that person. Maybe they're a new user with no ability to comment to point it out, and they just head elsewhere from then on. Similarly, if minority groups are more prone to imposter syndrome, it…

Make sure to get all 176 in that dropdown, just to be sure.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#627

What the StackOverflow company fails to get is that their product is assholes and industrial level asshole production. Every question is moderated by volunteers, who have curated every high value question there. From an askers perspective, sure you may have asked 1 slightly off-topic question, but for a reviewer, that’s the 30th off-topic question today - and SO gamifies reviewing so you are encouraged to do so. I us…

I think this is down to lack of good filtering tools. Primarily duplicate or lazy questions shouldn't even be seen by high-rep users most of the time. It's wasting everyone's time to maximize the exposure of those kind of questions. Low rep users could do with answering those kinds of questions, though - low-hanging fruit to get a leg up. I have 35k rep and a 4 digit user id on SO. I've pretty much stopped using it f…

Exactly the problem with this blog post and the other similar initiatives preceding it. It's lipstick on a pig. Heart emoticons and "thanks" aren't going to improve the site. Improving UX, fixing problems that have been outstanding for years will reduce friction, make it easier for everyone to get along, and naturally lead to better feelings.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#628
post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the same boat. 10k rep on SO and softeng.se, and I barely participate anymore. For me the most frustrating part is that the rules forbid vague questions with opinionated answers, but that at this point in my career most of the things I find interesting are all like that so there’s almost nothing I want to get answers to that I can ask. Software architecture questions are very difficult to ask without triggerin…

At an arms length it really seems like there should be some kind of delineations of the questions. "What document backend to use with Drupal?" is a question whose answers are in constant flux. It is a bad match for and Authoritative Language Compendium. But it's also the kinds of thing people wonder about, it's a relevant tech question, and the dialog around something like that is easily as valuable as the accepted a…

> "What document backend to use with Drupal?" is a question whose answers are in constant flux. It is a bad match for and Authoritative Language Compendium. But it's also the kinds of thing people wonder about, it's a relevant tech question, and the dialog around something like that is easily as valuable as the accepted answer since everyone is skinning a different cat.

IIRC, they did something like that. It was called programmers.stackexchange.com, and I used it a couple times and it was great.

Then some power-that-be decided it "wasn't working" (probably because it didn't fit the SO only-kind-of-good-question rubric) and changed the focus be a clone of SO with some minor difference in emphasis.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue there are way too many variables in that question to present a strong argument either way. One thing I will say on it though is how much of our humanity are we ready to sacrifice on the altar of this mythical "meritocracy" that every online community, especially those built on or around code, seems to aim for? And how long until we're ready to confront the fact that a lot of these meritocracies strangel…

>One thing I will say on it though is how much of our humanity are we ready to sacrifice on the altar of this mythical "meritocracy" that every online community, especially those built on or around code, seems to aim for? i don't mean to imply that we should preserve the toxic communities for the point of good content. but there seems to be a correlation here, and it's worth studying what positive effects the toxicit…

The article A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy ( http://www.shirky.com/writings/herecomeseverybody/group_enem... ) gets into that a bit.

One of the interesting bits in there is:

> The second basic pattern that Bion detailed: The identification and vilification of external enemies. This is a very common pattern. Anyone who was around the Open Source movement in the mid-Nineties could see this all the time. If you cared about Linux on the desktop, there was a big list of jobs to do. But you could always instead get a conversation going about Microsoft and Bill Gates. And people would start bleeding from their ears, they would get so mad.

Which can be seen in Stack Overflow (its the newbies that don't read that are messing everything up) and reddit (Stack Overflow aka Downvote and Duplicate). Each group is making their group stronger and a more firmer identification by vilifying the other group (merited or not).

This happens in all groups.

--

The "everyone is mean" nature of some of the communities, I believe, comes from further down in the 'three things to accept':

> 2.) The second thing you have to accept: Members are different than users. A pattern will arise in which there is some group of users that cares more than average about the integrity and success of the group as a whole. And that becomes your core group, Art Kleiner's phrase for "the group within the group that matters most."

> The core group on Communitree was undifferentiated from the group of random users that came in. They were separate in their own minds, because they knew what they wanted to do, but they couldn't defend themselves against the other users. But in all successful online communities that I've looked at, a core group arises that cares about and gardens effectively. Gardens the environment, to keep it growing, to keep it healthy.

> Now, the software does not always allow the core group to express itself, which is why I say you have to accept this. Because if the software doesn't allow the core group to express itself, it will invent new ways of doing so.

When the core group lacks the tools necessary to maintain the vision / success of the site as a whole, they are going to find other ways to defend themselves from excessive workload. The easiest way is to be rude to people so they go away (and the overall workload is reduced).

I believe that this pairs with the (misguided?) efforts of Stack Overflow to become more inclusive by lowering barriers to participate (see design for #3) and making it harder for the core group to moderate content (be nice, changing close reasons, removing 10k rep flagging assistance, reducing 15k rep protection ability, a diamond moderator culture of "if it got upvoted it shouldn't be deleted unless there's vote fraud").

--

The entire article is a very interesting read. The author's credentials is also an interesting read - https://www.bloomberg.com/research//stocks/private/person.as... . Check what organizations he's a member of the board at.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#630
post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Else-net, there was a theory put out that if one feels marginalized already, then the perception of "Stack Overflow doesn't want my question, they down voted it because it lacks any code" is evidence of that marginalization even though its directed at everyone.

This seems likely. If you are mistreated for a given reason, you would likely attribute mistreatment elsewhere to having the same cause, and given that would be ones first impression of mistreatment, even with evidence that the mistreatment is for another more broader issue, people will likely contribute the mistreatment to the original reason they were mistreated in the first area. It is similar to making a bad firs…

With Stack Overflow, its also important to remember the 0th impressions of people finding the site through google.

Finding material that is off topic but preserved for some reason is often cited as a negative experience. The "I searched for XYZ and it was closed as not constructive" (note: not constructive hasn't been a valid close reason for several years).

This brings up the question of "should that material be findable on Stack Overflow if people are having such poor experiences when finding it?" and "are people finding the closed questions of yesteryear a disincentive to participate today?"

The finding things closed as a duplicate sign post isn't working as intended with redirecting them to the proper question - because when there is an answer to the question (that may or may not properly answer it) it prevents the logged out user from getting redirected to the duplicate.

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