> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…
It’s hard to take your claims seriously, when you proudly and publically publish meandering rants (linked to your HN account) about how gaming communities are in no way toxic, while completely denying Gamergate, its ties to white supremacists and a wealth of other examples [1]. [1] https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoarticles/no-the-gaming-...
Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
601–610 of 739 posts
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#602Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm a high-scoring user who has been put off by this exact behavior. The problem is, the behavior is pervasive among other high scoring users, and whenever I advocate against this kind of behavior, I get a whole bunch of pushback about it. No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture; they just push back and pile on when criticism is brought up. After a couple t…
> No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture No one wants the rules to change in a game that they perceive that they are winning (or have won). Moreso if they worked hard to win.
I'm one of those people who wants the rules to change in a game that I'm already winning. I worked hard to win; I fully engaged in the gamifiction, spending days at a time making sure I hit the max daily rep level, optimizing how I answered questions to get the highest score.
Even then, I tried to focus my optimization on ways that would help people more. For instance, one way to optimize is to post a very short quick answer, so you are able to get early upvotes before there's been a flood of answers for a question; but I would then edit and flesh out my answer. This has both advantages for reputation, since I could get early upvotes, and then later provide a more detailed comprehensive answer that would be likely to get further upvotes. It's also helpful for the person asking; it's possible that the very quick reply will be helpful, so they get an answer soon, but it's also possible that the more detailed reply with references to docs is what they need, so it's a way of making the gamification actually work to help people out more.
I think one of the big problems is when they added gamification of moderation. They added the review queues, which prompt you to review questions and answers that had been downvoted, voted to close, edited by other people, etc, and gave out badges based on numbers of reviews done. This means you'd go through a queue of questions and answers on topics you might know nothing about, and be prompted as for whether or not you agree with someone else's close vote or edit or the like.
When a question is not great, you could just vote to close it, or you could try to engage with the person asking the question and help edit it into a better form. I generally try to talk to the person asking and edit the question to be better; but getting internet points for getting through a lot of reviews quickly incentivizes people to make quick judgements, sometimes on topic they don't know much about. After they added the review queues, I found a lot more questions were being closed before you had a chance to answer or to engage with the person in comments to get them to clarify their question.
And while lots of people these days argue that closing a question is just a way to indicate that it's not up to standards but it can be fixed and re-opened, for people new to SO who aren't familiar with the culture it feels like a slap in the face and a rejection of their question. After a question is closed, it's a lot more likely that they'll just delete it, delete their account, or just stop participating.
Anyhow, yeah, there is an aspect of people not wanting to change the rules of a game that they are playing and winning; I just wish either the incentives were changed, or more people would take the view that the point of the scoring is as a rough measure of how much they are helping people out, and helping people out is the ultimate goal, rather than being an end in itself.
And I should also say that I'm not against closing truly bad or unsalvageable questions; I've had cases where I've tried to engage with someone to make their question better, and they just haven't made any effort, or cases in which people are obviously asking homework questions. But I really think that there should be some effort to help people out with asking their questions before just blindly deciding to close them out.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#603Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But this isn't true... You completely missed this point. To quote the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. Hanlon doesn't claim to know why the marginalized groups feel unwelcome. He doesn't even claim that the root cause is a bias of action -- conscious or subconscious -- on the part of SO's users or staff. What he said was these groups…
What he said was these groups report at a higher than average rate the feeling of being unwelcome As a non-white I call shenanigans. My non-whiteness is very obvious in my SO profile pic and not once in 8 years of active use of the site has it ever come up, nor have I perceived being treated any differently. Also, no one ever asked me if I felt “unwelcome” nor is there a button to click for that, so I don’t know wher…
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#604Earlier quoted context omitted.
What he said was these groups report at a higher than average rate the feeling of being unwelcome As a non-white I call shenanigans. My non-whiteness is very obvious in my SO profile pic and not once in 8 years of active use of the site has it ever come up, nor have I perceived being treated any differently. Also, no one ever asked me if I felt “unwelcome” nor is there a button to click for that, so I don’t know wher…
Else-net, there was a theory put out that if one feels marginalized already, then the perception of "Stack Overflow doesn't want my question, they down voted it because it lacks any code" is evidence of that marginalization even though its directed at everyone.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
> one of my questions from 2011 edited today, to remove the word "Thanks!" from the bottom. A successful edit is a way to gain reputation, which is hard to get these days for new users. I know it feels a bit odd when someone else edits your question: you could roll it back, but then again why should you be bothered? It's the same question, with one less word.
I guess that explains why literally almost every single question and answer has been edited by a high ranking user to add a comma or change one word usually
Those who subscribe to the "the information in this post should be available to everyone in the most readable way" will make changes to curate the material. Reading a post where the wrong 'their' or 'they're' or 'there' is used by someone can be very distracting and these edits serve to make that post more useful to more people as well as helping the OP become more proficient at English through correction.
Its not for the reputation (which they don't get) but rather the "this is good, but can be better" and trying to make Stack Overflow the best place it can be.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#606Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to stop answering certain questions, and only address "well asked" questions. I love Stack Overflow, and it's sure a valuable if imperfect resource, but this is something that drives me bonkers about it. If the question is intelligible enough to receive an answer, and if your answer is potentially helpful to the asker, then…
> The additional level of moderation doesn't seem to have added much value over my time participating. The closest thing I can think of as nice is combining duplicates, though moderators often seem to miss subtle differences between questions and in some cases information gets lost in the end. Generally, the moderation focus often seems legalistic or driven by artificial incentives rather than primarily focused on im…
There is. There are "audit" questions designed to test whether the reviewer is paying attention. If they improperly vote to close a "good" audit question or improperly vote to leave open a "bad" one, they get banned from reviewing for a while.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#607Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the reason is ... ? What's wrong with comments just being grayed out, collapsed and moved to the bottom if they are downvoted for being (too) stupid / trolling / fascist etc? Moderators could just have more voting power.
OK reading the Medium post [0] I see that toxic comments were the starting points here, not the rampant practice of closing questions for dubious reasons. [0] https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c4641...
It should also be noted that the author of the post has a consulting service for improving diversity in the workplace (second paragraph) - there is a promotional aspect to this post. Stack Overflow, as a very central and large place that people perceive as being jerks is an easy and large target to push against.
It is also interesting that while this is being held up as an example (from the post):
> I used vivid imagery, sure, but you’ll notice that in all my criticism of Stack Overflow, I avoid name-calling, personal attacks, and profanity. For the record, I do not endorse any criticism of Stack Overflow that resorts to these tactics, though I do feel compassion for the pain that leads to this kind of response.
that posts on HN ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16936221 ) are not being held up to the same standard of avoiding name calling, personal attacks and profanity.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#608Earlier quoted context omitted.
If there are people who need an answer, and people happy to provide that answer (and perhaps a bit of kind coaching on how to find answers in the future), what is the downside of letting them connect on stackoverflow? Nothing is forcing people to hang out in the novice area answering repetitive questions if they don’t want to. The downside of disallowing ‘unworthy’ questions is that people feel made stupid for asking…
If there are people who need an answer, and people happy to provide that answer ... what is the downside ...? Turnover/churn. If a Q/A site allowed basic questions then the site would be flooded with them since the population of novices greatly exceeds sophomores or experts. Moderation would need to keep up with silo-ing these Qs into the 'novice area' you propose. Experts would need to sift more to get to the intere…
This is really excusing bad UI/UX (like surfacing existing answers while a user is typing a question) and a bad ranking algorithm. There is no such thing as "being flooded" only bad search algorithms, and bad UX. Google is "flooded" with a result set spanning the entire internet, and they manage to surface answers. Stack Overflow can do the same--they have more tools to rank and influence behavior (rewards, moderation, points) than google has because they control the site, its structure, and how it is gamified.
Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#609Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change
#610Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that SO isn't a forum any more is a problem because it has stopped encouraging learning. If you can't discuss the problem, all you'll get is canned answers for copy/paste monkeys. And then you'll wonder why you can't hire a competent programmer any more...
SO has NEVER been a forum. That's where most people are confused. It has NEVER been a platform for open discussion.
My recent experience with SO is: i reach it via googling a problem or feature, I find a question describing my problem that is closed because of being a duplicate of...
... except the other question isn't a duplicate in subtle ways and has nothing to do with my problem.
I've also seen moderators encouraging people to post answers as code ready to copy paste instead of answers helping the recipient to learn something.
How is that useful?