Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change • Hacker News Board

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#431

Post by matt_j » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:45 AM UTC

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

There's a delicate balance for moderators to achieve and I don't envy them.

Some questions are clearly daft, the person hasn't done any prior research, the question is vague, the problem is not apparent and it's a big waste of time trying to help. These questions are often shut down mercilessly and I think that's probably the best thing for them, but I've no doubt it's a terrible experience for the guy asking the question. I think the SO blog post addressed it pretty well by outlining a more streamlined question form with clear prompts for each part of the question.

Other questions are not daft, but perhaps are not asked well. They need to be edited, re-framed, boiled down to the essential parts, an example included, the expected output included, that sort of thing. It's tiresome to run into questions like this over and over, and I can understand how people might comment out of frustration, but it's good to prompt the OP to fix their question up so it can (and probably will) be answered well. Kid gloves and kindness are important here, it's not always easy to ask a good question. The SO blog post went a long way to addressing this and I look forward to seeing some changes on the site.

Overall I think SO is a fantastic resource with many amazing contributors, so it's good to see them responding to this problem and I hope they can make it even better.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#432

Post by lambda » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:46 AM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #181

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

> Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to stop answering certain questions, and only address "well asked" questions. I love Stack Overflow, and it's sure a valuable if imperfect resource, but this is something that drives me bonkers about it. If the question is intelligible enough to receive an answer, and if your answer is potentially helpful to the asker, then…

> The additional level of moderation doesn't seem to have added much value over my time participating. The closest thing I can think of as nice is combining duplicates, though moderators often seem to miss subtle differences between questions and in some cases information gets lost in the end. Generally, the moderation focus often seems legalistic or driven by artificial incentives rather than primarily focused on improving the breadth, depth, and quality of the site as a technical resource.

The problem is, they added the review queues, which prompts people to review questions on topics they might know nothing about, and give badges based on how much people review. So people go through those review queues and might be motivated to just get through things quickly without thinking very much about the effect of what they are doing; there is no meta review, no downside to just making hasty decisions that just prevent other people from engaging in useful discussion.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#433

Post by fapjacks » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:51 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #402

manigandham wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment I replied to said minorities. This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The exact issue is harsh replies and actions that stem from the gamification dynamics and strict moderation. It has nothing to do with physical traits of the user on either side, especially when users are anonymous. Minorities and marginalized gr…

> The comment I replied to said minorities. Yes, and I answered your question about where the pattern of using “minorities” as it was used there came from. > This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. How is that not part of society? > Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The issue with disadvantaged, underrepresented, and/or marginalized groups has very little to d…

I should preface this by saying this isn't directed at the parent I'm replying to. It's just the point where I couldn't read anymore without posting. What is offensive is Stack Overflow using this obsequious, cloying, patronizing language and false equivalence -- that women/PoC are broadly inexperienced ("newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups") -- to virtue signal for more clicks and advertising dollars, or to push their recruiting effort. I find Stack Overflow's post shockingly distasteful. It takes a lot to offend me, but this is disgusting.

And couldn't they find a better person in this tech company to deliver this message than a white dude VP?

Then they explain that this is really, actually happening because the marginalized groups "do feel less welcome... because they tell us" (emphasis mine). Do these marginalized groups know how everyone else feels? Have the marginalized-but-anonymous users invented a telepathy device with which to gauge their feelings against others?

Please demonstrate how any Stack Overflow user can know that they feel something more or less than any other user.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#434

Post by lambda » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 2:59 AM UTC

sigstoat wrote: post #301

wheelie_boy wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. If you could only meet the needs…

> I think the core problem is that they've focused too much on being like wikipedia (a single authoritative, comprehensive answer to each important question), and not enough on helping people to learn. Over time a site will grow a culture, and experts on the site will outweigh and overrule experts on the subject matter. In this case, we're also seeing answerers' needs outweigh askers'. there's also the third, silent,…

Except part of the problem is that it's not even doing a very good job of giving a good authoritative answer either.

In the earlier days, it was designed to straddle the line more with a wiki; there were "community wiki" questions and answers, but people couldn't get reputation for those, and if someone's question or answer was edited enough it would automatically converted to "community wiki". However, people would get upset about losing the potential karma, so that feature was taken away, and major edits to other people's answers that change the meaning of it started to be discouraged.

However, there's no way for anyone other the person who originally asked a question to change which answer is accepted. So if someone asked a question 10 years ago, and someone gave a bad answer or an answer that is now out of date but which was accepted, and those two people have now left the site, there's no good way to get the first answer to the question to be the correct one. You can write a better answer, and even if it's upvoted, there will still be the accepted answer ahead of it.

I've tried following the original, more wiki-like spirit of the site by editing such answers, and then gotten other people reverting me because the edit would "give reputation to someone who didn't deserve it."

I feel like the incentives, and balance, and community of the site are just off right now. It still serves a useful purpose, but it could be a lot better, but whenever I've tried making suggestions for how to improve, I've gotten so much pushback that I've just given up.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#435

Post by Lazare » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:03 AM UTC

I think they've identified a major problem with the site, and I wish them luck changing it.

I was a very early user of Stack Overflow, and racked up a bunch of karma long ago, but I fairly quickly felt pushed out. I felt that the site became less useful as a place for me to get answers, and I felt that it became much less welcoming as a place for me to answer questions. Much of that revolved around the increasingly militant gatekeeping and arcane rules the community adopted.

Nowadays, I mostly run across Stack Overflow when someone links a fascinating question thread which will - invariably - be locked for being the "wrong" kind of content. (Because of course it is.)

It is a bizarre, broken community, and one I don't think is meeting its original goals. (And I say that as someone who had what was, back in the day, a pretty high score.)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#436

Post by hyperpallium » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

Unfortunately, you can't legislate kindness.

The best you can do is harness jerks - that's what capitalism does; that's what stackoverflow does.

The problem is high-karma jerks, because "maybe they are right to be a jerk about your helpfulness" and you can't do anything about them anyway.

Traditional clubs/organisations like Rotary International, masons, toastmasters, churches or even AA might have more insight on making an organization welcoming, yet preserving rules.

I would love it if copy and forms could have at least some impact, so looking forward to see how this goes.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#437

Post by b_t_s » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:04 AM UTC

herogreen wrote: post #187

kristianc wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's a bit of "5 Whys" going on here. Most of the times I end up on Stack Overflow, I arrive via Google. I usually have to check for around 5 answers before I find one that hasn't been locked as "not constructive" or for some other arbitrary reason. Is it any wonder that people find it easier to ask their own questions? The name "help vampire" is so telling of how SO mods see themselves (as arbiters an…

I was not thinking of malice / incompetence but simply of laziness. Whatever the problem is it is easier to have people search for you.

Is it laziness if a novice has spent hours trying to figure something out and doesn't even know how to ask the question properly because of some fundamental misunderstanding or hole in their knowledge? I see and answer this sort of question on reddit occasionally. I'm sure there are times where I've dashed out "You're totally barking up the wrong tree, try ..." while I'm waiting for my code to build and saved somebody several(more) hours of hair pulling frustration.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#438

Post by beenBoutIT » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:11 AM UTC

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

That seems to be the way it goes, at first.You basically need to visit the site every day and vote while editing typos and fixing other peoples mistakes.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#439

Post by beenBoutIT » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:14 AM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #84

lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

I think it does serve as a barrier against all but the most motivated who persist. The digital equivalent of being stuck on the porch at Fight Club.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#440

Post by citilife » Fri, Apr 27, 2018, 3:14 AM UTC

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

First part sure, last part.. No one knows who you are on Stack Overflow unless you make it known, so no. I don't think marginalized groups are treated any different, although perhaps they may take more offense. Now, if you said something like: Vim is the best. Perhaps that could be a marginalized group, but in reality, I don't think that's what was being discussed.